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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   38588 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 20, 2025

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Help me understand an argument about the US-Mexico relationship

A friend and old-coworker recently posted in a group chat an article quote

«Trump … mulled sending military special forces into Mexico to fight drug cartels» [I couldn't find the article by quote, but maybe it's from a Mexican source]

They think that if that were to happen “both the general population and government unofficially would side with the narcos (for different reasons).” Radicalization and bad things would follow. Firstly, I thought these things already happened. Was Sicaro not just exaggerated for effect, but complete fiction?

We diverted for a bit into the politics of Mexico under the cartels. It was fun to be reminded that there still are areas not even the military will go into without cartel approval, that AMLO used to visit El Chapo’s mother regularly, that any information given to federal agencies or even directly to the president was pretty much immediately relayed to the cartels. Apparently, cartel-unfriendly political candidates are routinely assassinated. So the state seems to have been completely captured by the cartels. They have also deeply infiltrated the local and federal law enforcement agencies. The cartels have their own military equipment, intelligence agencies maybe, air force?, submaries (not armed though I hope?)

Still, even without local police or federal government involvement (who I understand most are assets of or actual narcos) I assumed the DEA/CIA/FBI still did shit to keep things in check, at least around the border and inside the US. Well actually, cartels are expanding into Colorado these days.

Enter Trump's executive order Designating Cartels and Other Organizations as Foreign Terrorist Organizations and Specially Designated Global Terrorists.

My friend was incensed, thinks that any action by special forces would be war, that the Mexican people and government will rally around the cartels, there would be terrorist attacks and sabotage by cartels/Mexican immigrants.

I’m afraid here is where I lost my cool a little bit. Paraphrasing:

Me

Do what you want in your country, seems like the people voted for this [probably not true given political assassinations/voter intimidation], but imo the US is within its rights to target the cartels that operate around/across the borders.

M. Bridge

If the USA starts a war with the neighbor to the South, that will not go well for anyone

Me

Not a war, just a special military operation ;)
This won't be a "war" because the Mexican military won't do shit
I imagine there might be an ultimatum delivered to the cartels, escalating to raids and precision bombing of cartel compounds/assets.

M. B

surely you're joking

Me

Why are the cartels so precious to Mexicans that an attack on them is an attack on their country and their pride?

M. B

because narcos have weapons, money and more

Me

and they also have military equipment, submarines, and more
But much worse signals intelligence, no f-35s, precision bombs or satellites, etc

M. B

that's still war

Me

Actually it's not war, there's just this new American cartel called "forces especiales" that has weapons, money, and more and that has the support of the president and that operates across the US-Mexico border
But if the Mexicans want to call it war then so be it

M. B

🤦

Me

I hope that cooler heads will prevail; Lebanon did not call it war when Israel fought and decapitated Hezbollah

M. Oldschool

There's actually an ex-Mexican special forces cartel trained by the CIA in insurgency/counter insurgency tactics that became the most violent cartel.

Me

[Mugatu: I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!]
I understand that Mexico is a cartel-run state, but why should America's cartel, the actual US government/military, not insist that they fuck off our borders
"we'll feel bad and consider going to war with you if you don't allow our muderous kidapping raping drug-and-people-trafficking home team do whatever it wants?"
Is that the argument?

I guess what I want to know is, Am I The Asshole?

I think that the incentives of the cartels are pretty unlike the incentives of jihadist Palestinians.

In particular, provoking the opposed government into a violent response is good strategy for jihadists, but a terrible strategy for the cartels.

When the cartels start firing rockets over the US border, you have my blessings to bomb their launch sites (if Mexico is unable or unwilling to put a stop to that).

When forces of the Mexico government overcome your border defenses and start massacring your citizens, you have my blessings to turn Mexico into Gaza in a futile attempt to enforce a regime change.

Neither provocation will happen. The cartels like the status quo, especially the part where they are not getting bombed. The US government (presumably) likes the part where they are not criticized for accepting tremendous civilian casualties in their military operations (for a change). This is one of the cases where military confrontation would make things worse for both sides.

I mean, if you want to task the CIA with taking out cartel bosses without killing innocent bystanders (think snipers, not hellfire missiles), I guess I would be ok with that? I am however not positive that it would work, seems like even the hellfire variant did not really defeat the Taliban.

I think that less flashy responses, like trying to limit the amount of arms smuggling from the US into Mexico, plus having law enforcement counter the cartels when they operate on US soil, are likely more effective to counter spreading cartel influence.

I think that less flashy responses, like trying to limit the amount of arms smuggling from the US into Mexico, plus having law enforcement counter the cartels when they operate on US soil, are likely more effective to counter spreading cartel influence.

Yes, but these don’t let Greg Abbott campaign on having taken the gloves off.

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