This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Trump, in Shock Announcement, Says U.S. Will Take Over Gaza After Permanently Displacing Palestinians
Now there are a few problems with this. One is that Egypt and Jordan, the obvious candidates, are absolutely against it. Second is that it will be horribly embarrassing when an American soldier gets blown up by unexploded American ordnance that was donated to Israel. It's also somewhat incoherent - he's going to make it into some kind of big multicultural party zone?
The US does have lots of leverage over Egypt though, their economy has been on the cusp of collapse for a while now. So maybe Trump's increased willingness to deploy coercion will bear fruit here.
His recent obsession with acquiring foreign territory is really strange. It’s been two weeks, and already there’s 4 or so territories that he’s consistently talking about trying to take.
I don’t know but I’m starting to set my assumption toward there being something even more wrong with his brain than I previously thought rather than him doing this in a posturing way or to get some kind of outcome.
I know Trump is just uniquely Trump but even for him this is getting pretty out there.
Consider the world in 50 years: will the US have more, less or the same territory? Until very recently I would have taken the under that the US would only exist as the Eastern Seaboard of the North American continent. A re-alignment and interest in territory expansion might be the thing that re-invigorates the nation and let's it kick it's decline down the road. I have no illusions that any of this will happen under Trump but boy am I glad to see the overton window thrown open. These things need to be discussed and not shunned as gouache or déclassé. I think a lot would need to change at the federal level to make increasing the number of states workable, but there's no technical reason our flag couldn't have 298 stars. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I’m extremely averse to all of this and I’ll tell you why.
It’s been a common trope that once the generation who knows war firsthand dies out then the naive people left behind will get the itch and repeat the horrors again for a new generation.
And right on schedule, the WW2 generation has finally died out and we’ve now got all three major military powers talking about annexation of territories for the glory of it.
You’ll probably say, but we’d only do things peacefully! No way current MAGA would ever launch a war of conquest!
And that’s comforting for me to believe and it might even be true, but the problem is that you’ve all done away with the Overton window so thoroughly that I have no functioning means of predicting just how far outside of it things might go.
A few months ago it would have been crazy to suggest that Trump would ever talk about taking foreign territory. He’s the isolationist America first guy! A few days ago it would have been ridiculous to suggest that Trump would ever talk about taking over Gaza. Sure Greenland sounds cool but Gaza, but come on, that one is wild.
I’m getting tired, boss, and it’s because I no longer have any functioning mental model of just how far people who want to expand the Overton window want to go. And the direction that it seems to be getting pulled in is one that triggers my “these guys might be the type to fuck around and repeat the horrors” sense. Sure no one sets out to do that, but it’s easy to imagine us getting drawn slowly along a road bad road. Maybe not today, or tomorrow, but soon the window might get yanked back over there again.
It seems that no matter how crazy I think something might be, once it happens there’s masses of people who will come to argue for it and why it’s suddenly based, even if they wouldn’t have done so a week ago had I suggested the same idea.
Basically I don’t trust y’all with the window. I’ve graduated from my idealistic youth stage to now become conservative to slow down further changes to the Overton window until we can figure out what the hell is going on.
The blackpill here is "the horrors must inevitably repeat, and nothing anyone does can change that," to borrow from Turchin's ideas.
I think that’s probably true and it’s some weird epiphenomenon of the human condition for whatever reason.
It doesn’t mean I’m going to cheer on the slide back into it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link