site banner
PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   34881 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 17, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Re military hospitals, I had meant that I can imagine protests being banned outside some sensitive location in the US, especially if they are held repeatedly, are disturbing to the staff and visitors at a vulnerable moment, and are in contradiction of a court order. This is what happened outside a UK abortion centre, and that Vance is furious about. Obviously the same thing wouldn't happen outside a US abortion centre in the current climate, my point is that an equal infringement of freedoms at a different location not so important to christian fundamentalists would not cause any outrage, so if that's true, it's not at actually freedom that is at issue.

A military hospital was just my stab at an example location where the American public might not like to see repeated protests held.

especially if they are held repeatedly, are disturbing to the staff and visitors at a vulnerable moment, and are in contradiction of a court order.

It appears that Scotland is banning silent prayer which is a far cry from violent or even noisy demonstrations.

my point is that an equal infringement of freedoms at a different location not so important to christian fundamentalists would not cause any outrage, so if that's true, it's not at actually freedom that is at issue.

Christians in America have been concerned about the infringement of religious freedom in the military and even – despite the rightwing/business alliance – in the workplace. If the VA forbid silent prayer inside of their medical centers right-wing evangelicals would be livid (and in fact every so often issues like this crop up in the military and the right wing Christian evangelical/fundamentalist types get Big Mad about it). Now, I do think it's true that righties and Christians, like everyone else, often aren't perfectly principled. But I also don't think that having e.g. in-group bias means you are insincere .

That's a wilful misunderstanding of the law invented by the Telegraph – the most extreme case that might fall under the legislation would be people praying in a window visible from the abortion clinic with the intention of influencing the patients. I don't actually agree with the law but it's clearly been made in order to deal with persistent protesters causing upset to patients, not to criminalise what people do in their own heads.

That's a wilful misunderstanding of the law invented by the Telegraph

From my linked article:

Lois McLatchie Miller, senior legal communications officer of Alliance Defending Freedom International, on Tuesday posted on social media a video of a police officer reading a piece of paper to a pro-lifer stating that a “silent vigil” violates Scotland’s law.

Is it your position that the police officer here got this from the Telegraph, or that this is some sort of hoax?

it's clearly been made in order to deal with persistent protesters causing upset to patients

Yes – in the United States we generally frown on banning peaceful expression even if it upsets people. And while perhaps some of this is a "cultural differences" thing, I think that Vance and Americans more broadly are correct about the need for free speech, particularly in a democratic society. Cutting off free speech is bad for society because it cuts management classes off from authentic feedback. (It's darkly comic to see Germany cracking down on right-wing extremism when, as I understand it, cracking down on right-wing extremism in the 1930s did not stop and may have actually aided Hitler's rise.)

I'm not aware of any crackdown on right-wing extremism in 1930s germany. There was Hitler's Beer Hall putsch in 1923, but he got off easy, one year in prison for an attempted coup with loss of life.

I'm not aware of any crackdown on right-wing extremism in 1930s germany.

Mea culpa, I probably should have said "1920s" instead, as Hitler came to power in 1933, although I assume some of the censorship technically lasted into the 1930s.

On the crackdown in the 1920s I'll let FIRE do the talking.

Weimar Germany had laws banning hateful speech (particularly hateful speech directed at Jews), and top Nazis including Joseph Goebbels, Theodor Fritsch and Julius Streicher actually were sentenced to prison time for violating them. The efforts of the Weimar Republic to suppress the speech of the Nazis are so well known in academic circles that one professor has described the idea that speech restrictions would have stopped the Nazis as “the Weimar Fallacy.”

A 1922 law passed in response to violent political agitators such as the Nazis permitted Weimar authorities to censor press criticism of the government and advocacy of violence. This was followed by a number of emergency decrees expanding the power to censor newspapers. The Weimar Republic not only shut down hundreds of Nazi newspapers — in a two-year period, they shut down 99 in Prussia alone — but they accelerated that crackdown on speech as the Nazis ascended to power. Hitler himself was banned from speaking in several German states from 1925 until 1927.

Far from being an impediment to the spread of National Socialist ideology, Hitler and the Nazis used the attempts to suppress their speech as public relations coups. The party waved the ban like a bloody shirt to claim they were being targeted for exposing the international conspiracy to suppress “true” Germans.

I despise hate speech laws, but an argument can be made that a few hundred dollar fines and maybe 3 weeks in prison for 30 counts of hate speech over 10 years, is too mild. What would Stalin have thought of this "crackdown"? Where are the cracked heads? Starting with Hitler, of course. The man was an awoved enemy of the state, had caused deaths in trying to overturn it, and he was let go with a slap on the wrist because he had 'noble intentions'.

Yes, well if that's the case Germany needs to either increase their penalties for "hate speech" massively or drop the dang thing. Instead they seem to be pursuing the exact same path they did last time, handing out slaps on the wrist.

Or forget about hate speech, focus on attempts to overthrow the government. The lesson from that time may well be: in cases like the beer hall putsch and january 6, hand out death sentences like candy. ok for Jan 6, they looked like a collection of village idiots, they may be spared under low IQ threshold rules, but a man of sound mind, attempting to grab supreme executive power? That‘s do or die for the state, and therefore, death for the man.

More comments

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats