This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Watching the disastrous discussion between Zelensky Trump and Vance I wonder how you guys here feel? The whole thing made me nauseous , treating an ally like that is disgusting , unpresidential and certainly geopolitcally inept. The EU-US relationship is not salvagable and at this point I would clap if US bases were emptied and NATO dissolved. Decouple the EU from the US as fast as possible and be independent. There is no way to talk sense into lunatics like Trump and Vance and Putin's control over them somehow seems to be absolute. What an absolute disaster. I know that there will be differing opinions here but at least most of you must agree that this is too much, or not , maybe Russian propaganda really has you convinced that Ukrainians are stealing money and started the war or some nonsense.
I just watched it, and I'm pretty conflict-averse irl so boy, it was hard. My face is flushed. Vance and Zelensky are going to be replaying that disastrous ten minutes in their heads over and over tonight. I think Trump already forgot about it.
But, watching it, it's pretty obvious what went wrong.
The administration is getting grilled about a security guarantee because Ukraine is confident a cease-fire will not prevent future incursions from Russia. The US doesn't want to commit to a security guarantee because they know that there's a real chance they would have to intervene because of the same worry. Ukraine and the US both agree that Russia is not trustworthy, but the US cannot publicly acknowledge this, because then a security guarantee would then directly imply that the US is agreeing to take an active role against Russia in a hot war. Also you can't do diplomacy with someone if you've already committed to the position that's it's futile. Zelensky is at war; he can do that. The US shouldn't do that.
Zelensky's point (that Russia has violated agreements in the past) was a good one, and it of course stumps Trump and Vance. I think Vance's aggressive reaction was more like, "Are you really trying to box us in on this right here, in front of the cameras?" I'm sure this really caught Zelensky off guard, because the playbook he was running works very well in Europe and elsewhere, to my understanding. The shouting was a result of Zelensky's attempts to interrupt. In fairness, there was interrupting from all sides.
Ok tell me why I'm wrong.
You're wrong because the media coverage for just about everyone else, propagandistic or otherwise, will insist that it's far greater than that.
Trump may still have already forgotten about it, but he'll be asked about it, and be grumpy to be reminded over and over by journalists eager to needle him.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link