site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   30028 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 17, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

A potentially more interesting case is the recent deportation of alleged Venezuelan gang members. A US district court ordered that the deportations not proceed for 14 days while it hears arguments about the legality of the deportations under the Alien Enemies Act, but that order may have been issued after the gang members had already left US soil. I assume they will try to deport more people under the Act and that these cases will go up to the Supreme Court as well.

Courtlistener docket is here. Alien Enemies Act is codified as 50 USC Chapter 3. Trump's Executive order is here.

On the basis of the evidence so far (which I think is just what is in the EO itself) I am skeptical that the actions of Tren de Aragua satisfy the statutory requirement of being an "invasion or predatory incursion" that is "perpetrated" by a "foreign nation or government." There's a hearing scheduled for an hour or so from now and I will be pretty surprised if it does not end in the beginning of contempt proceedings for some officials. Just Security has an article with a pretty detailed timeline.

ETA:

Trump announced in a post last night that he was considering voiding the last minute preemptive Biden pardons of Fauci, members of January 6 House committee, and others, because an "autopen" was used to sign the pardons. Presidential authority to grant pardons is very broad, and apparently autopen has been used by prior presidents; looks like a losing case if it goes before the Supreme Court.

Trying to imagine the logistics of how this plays out. Trump's DOJ presumably charges one or more pardoned individuals with a crime within the scope of the pardon. They move to dismiss (or equivalent) on the basis they were pardoned. DOJ claims the pardons are not valid. Defendants produce whatever constitute the official pardon documents, various presidential announcements of the pardons etc. DOJ's rebuttal is ???. What could possibly go in the blank such that a court would permit the prosecution to move forward? I am confident that a court is not going to permit an investigation into a President's state of mind to try and determine a pardon's validity.

I’m not sure to what degree the founders would have contemplated an international crime ring that sells deadly drugs and enforces their terf with extreme violence. Sure they’re not a state in the sense of a flag, national anthem, and Olympic team, but on the other hand by such a measure neither are, Palestine, Islamic State, Tibet, or Transnitria. If members of a group affiliated with Hamas infiltrated the United States, then is the Alien Enemies Act out of the question? Palestine isn’t a state per the UN, so Hamas isn’t the head of a recognized government. So, could we do something here?

I don't understand what the "founders" have to do with anything. We are not interpreting some obscure or abstract constitutional provision. The Alien Enemies Act is a statute passed by the Fifth Congress of the United States in 1798. It uses the words "government" and "nation." If Congress wanted it to mean something else they have had over 200 years to change it.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats