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Culture War Roundup for the week of March 31, 2025

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Can you explain what the Hobbesian premise is that's being rejected/forgotten?

Sure. You not mentioning Hobbes at all, let alone Hlynka's position on Hobbes, is the Hobbesian premise that is being rejected / forgotten.

How I would characterize Hobbes doesn't matter. My position is that you can't properly characterize Hlynka's position if you don't address such a significant part of the position. Which is rather hard to do without mentioning them, which is generally a precondition to accurately characterizing. If you aren't accurately characterizing Hlynka's arguments, there's reason to doubt the validity of your argument.

The lack of mention in your rebuttal-argument is itself the hole.

My position is that you can't properly characterize Hlynka's position if you don't address such a significant part of the position.

I of course want to represent Hlynka's arguments as clearly and accurately as possible. I just reread the three "Inferential Distance" posts. The most relevant section seems to be this from the first post:

Relatedly, I maintain that the left vs right spectrum are best understood as religious schism within the western enlightment, with the adhearants of Locke and Rousseau on one side and the adhearants of Hobbes on the other. The core points of disagreement being internal vs exterenal loci of control and the "default" state of man.

But this ignores the diversity of views about human nature you find on both the far right and the far left. The dissident right already has an essentially Hobbesian view of human nature, as far as I understand it. And even on the far left, things are not so clear. Followers of the more psychoanalytically-inflected strains of Marxism stress that there can be no final end to history, no ultimate reconciliation of the individual with the collective.

Further quoting Hlynka:

That is an underlying assumption on both sides that if only all the existing social barriers/contracts could be knocked down, utopia would be achievable.

This is straightforwardly false. The dissident right does not believe this.

And finally:

Users here will often argue that the existance (or non-existance) of "an imaginary sky-friend" or individual loci of control are not relevant to whatever issue is being discussed but I disagree. I believe that these base level assumptions end up becoming the core of what positions we hold.

I suspect that what he wanted to say, but shied away from, is that there are ultimately two camps: those who believe in the Christian God, and those who don't. This is undoubtedly the conclusion that one should draw if one starts from Christian priors. But since I reject Christian priors, I unsurprisingly reject the conclusion as well.

I suspect that what he wanted to say, but shied away from, is that there are ultimately two camps: those who believe in the Christian God, and those who don't.

As @FCfromSSC explains masterfully, this isn't it. I also agree with him that Hlynkism is compatible with Christianity, but I would like to expand on how the Christian position is in a sense prior to and in a sense more specific. That is, the Christian position goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden; it goes back to man choosing to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before man could decide "We know how to solve all our problems,", he had to claim the right to determine "Our Problems". Claim the right to determine what is good and evil for himself, thus defining the problems to be solved. Of course, the Christian does not think that the Enlightenment is unique in doing this, and the not-necessarily-Christian claim can be that the Enlightenment is the first time that the entire formulation took hold in widespread fashion.

I would be remiss if I didn't remark that the rationalist perspective is still somewhat reeling from utter failure to conceptualize Our Problems or The Good in a philosophically-coherent way. It's resulted in all sorts of fallbacks, but most commonly, a sort of naive anti-realism. Even this vein still possesses the Enlightenment spirit, though. They hold a moral chauvanism, often paired with a bare appeal to game theory1, as though the only impediment to We being Able To Solve All Our Problems is simply a matter of Strategic Mechanism Design, that if done 'properly' (often involving simply eliminating the Bad Guys (TM)), will vaguely result in Solving All Our Problems. This is, of course, where the Hlynka "multi-agent environment" critique sort of lives, in that you do not get to be the omniscient, omnipotent Mechanism Designer.

1 - As @FCfromSSC puts it:

Prior to the conversation with Hlynka, I was thinking in terms of plans and payout matrices, looking for a solution to the problem. Hlynka reminded me that there is no solution, that there is no plan, that we are not in control of the world; all we control is ourselves; we make our choices and live with the consequences.

there is no solution, that there is no plan, that we are not in control of the world; all we control is ourselves; we make our choices and live with the consequences.

What I have reiterated over and over in these discussions for a year at this point is that believing in a "master plan" is not a necessary criteria of any of the political ideologies under discussion. You can be a Marxist and still believe that there is no plan, we are not in control of the world, etc. This is basically Zizek's whole schtick, if you listen to his lectures. It basically goes: "Yeah, Marxist revolutionaries at one point did believe that they were impersonal agents of history, simply carrying out what was rationally required, etc. We know now that was a mistake, a failure mode. That's how you get Stalinism. So that's been discredited. But we're still communists, we still believe in the communist project."

But does that make Zizek and his fellow travelers into allies of traditionalists? I don't think the traditionalists would agree. Which means that your belief in a master plan is not what fundamentally determines your political orientation.

But we're still communists, we still believe in the communist project.

It is always frustrating when people are trying to retreat to a social theory motte. Unlike physical mottes, which took many years to physically build, usually in a specific physical location that is focused on a particular geographical feature, right there for all to see with their own eyes, social theory mottes are often built around hiding the ball, burying the underlying premises under overt expressions of having rid themselves of all sorts of things. I have only very casually engaged with Zizek, so I would probably just have to ask you what you think the "Zizekian communist project" still is. What's the there there? What does it actually keep? What's it built on? My initial intuition is that it may take a few rounds of interrogation, but if/when we do discover what remains of it, we can begin to answer your questions, and I have a feeling about how it'll go.

what you think the “Zizekian communist project” still is

Intentionally left somewhat vague, but my impression from listening to him and his close collaborators is that it’s something like: nationalization of industries, central economic planning, aggressive state action on issues like global warming, workplace democracy and employee co-ops, etc. The sorts of ultra-left economic policies that you’ve heard of before.

There’s still the hope that with enough fumbling about we’ll someday “transcend the social relations of capital”, although everyone has failed at specifying what this means concretely just as much as Marx himself did.

And yes, it could involve the use of revolution too. Although as I’ve already argued, revolution is a tactic that can be utilized or rejected by any ideology.

Yup. Rereading @FCfromSSC's dump of links/quotes, it's kinda hard to see how it doesn't count.

Can you please elaborate?

FC has repeated multiple times that the principle criteria is “we know how to solve all our problems”. Zizek denies that we know how to solve all our problems. But you are claiming that his project still “counts”. Why?

Zizek denies that we know how to solve all our problems.

I mean, no? He seems to have a very particular (materialist etc.) social theory for precisely how to engineer our social relations, remaining plenty ignorant about how a contested environment could pose any challenges to the implementation of such a social theory. As FC put it, this certainly reads like "subjugating people wholesale" as "a form of manipulation by social institutions". That he has replaced "revolution" with "???" in his master social plan to solve all our problems is more like retreating from the outlying harassment defense posts to the main wall than even retreating all the way to the motte.

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