This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Averages are relatively unimportant here. I specified middle class, I'm thinking of my friends, middle class "dreamers" who have relatively responsible jobs, and often college degrees, in some cases professional degrees. I'm not talking about guys who would go back to Mexico and try to get a day labor job there, I'm talking about people I know who work as engineers and lawyers and skilled tradesmen but have no formal legal status (ironic for an ADA). If they went home, they'd have significantly lower standards of living than in the USA, but significantly higher than average in their home country. And anyway, this whole OP is about green card holders, they're by no means all from desperately impoverished countries. People from China and India and Singapore and Italy have all talked to me about thinking about going home!
It's more like: X%(deported to a Salvadoran labor camp with God-only-knows what odds of ever getting out) + Y%(disorganized deportation in which you might spend significant money or lose significant assets, while spending an indeterminate amount of time in various ICE detention centers) vs. Organized remigration to rebuild a new life in one's home country. Remigration has been pretty common throughout American history, my own family has lots of examples.
And anyway, every brown person who self-deports is one fewer brown person in America, and that is itself a goal for a lot of people within the MAGA movement. It doesn't have to be a main or complete strategy to have value.
ETA: There's also value for some people in illegal immigrants being scared and uncomfortable even if they don't leave. A world where migrants are a frightened, off the books, day laboring underclass that works at prices vastly below American prices; that's different from a world where migrants are buying houses and cars and going to restaurants and acting like normal people.
Mexican tradesmen do not earn the same wage premium over other blue collar labor that they do in the developed world due to low social mobility and a high labor supply. And a law degree is probably not going to be transferable.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link