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I can understand that some say nothing against Trump because of loyalty. But allowing tariffs destroying economy? That is borderline to treason against the USA. Most likely they are not competent and don't even understand that.
Is the economy that central to the American nation? I understand that market freedom has been an important component of our political strength, but at the same time, this feels like preparing for the last Cold War right as we are in the midst of a new one.
Yes.
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I think nothing is more important than economy. People talk about different values and in that sense we need more than economy, for example, democracy and pure air (ecology). But economy is a central thing that allows the country to thrive because everything is based on it. It is just that historically the growth was non-existent (0.01% per year) therefore not many past thinkers have mentioned it in the list of good values. We need to add this to the constitution of every country that achieving growth is very important.
I dunno, I think both left and right have been directionally-correct in that the economy is not the end-all-be-all of civilization. Plenty of societies in the past didn't give as much consideration to economic growth, yes, but they seemingly didn't really need it.
The way you wrote this post, I genuinely cannot tell if you are being sincere, because, at risk of mod intervention, it sounds like an alien value. If anything, I think it's the opposite: there are other values that allow us to have economic power, they are what lead to an economy and not strictly the other way around.
We are at this point, and you are concerned, because some of the very values that enable the economy are themselves weakened and endangered.
To be honest, it could be that some people have so different world view from others that it is indeed completely alien.
For me I cannot reconcile the idea that “societies didn't really need economic growth in the past”.
All societies wanted more, at all times. Obviously, some people are happy to be monks, live life in rejection of worldly pleasures and engage only in reading, talking about philosophy and commenting in online forums (he-he). I can understand them. But majority want more things, not less. It was never that they didn't need it, they simply couldn't have it.
Monks are a terrible example. Medieval monasteries were communes of second+ sons of aristocrats who, while technically rejecting personal wealth and living in relative privation for their social class, commanded vast wealth through said communes.
Wealth made possible in large part through their ownership of land-bound slaves, aka serfs. Which are the only social class that really matters when talking of the economy of past societies - any praise of the benefits of pre-industrial agricultural society that ignores the part where 90%+ of people were taxed-to-death subsistence farmers and/or slaves (don't forget the chances for death by violence being vastly higher than the 20th century including both WWs) is a comically rose-tinted view.
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I think that both left and right makes the same mistake by not valuing economy enough.
Obviously, all people in the past depended on economy 100%. When it was on a subsistence level and they run out of game to hunt, they had to change to agriculture. When crops failed, a lot of people died from famine etc.
Only relatively recently in the history we have something more in our lives than just food to survive. But some of the values that ensure growth are not intuitive, for example, free trade. No wonder people have difficulty getting their heads around.
When Latvia got independence from the USSR, its nationalistic government didn't think clearly about economy, their idea was that we are finally free from the Soviet occupiers we should concentrate on agriculture and close all factories because they pollute. That shows this primeval thinking of economy only as a food source. In a way it is right, we would die without food. But they were unable to grasp the idea that economy is something bigger than that and people got very unhappy when they couldn't get stuff other than food. Food is to survive, what makes life worth living are other things that is not food.
Yes, but some might argue that numbers on a graph are not what makes life worth living.
I think using the example of a formerly-communist country is misleading, and that there is a minimum level of prosperity in absolute terms, not relative, wherein people can be satisfied. Did Latvians suffer in the post-Soviet scenario you described, or were they still happy despite a lack of industrial capacity?
GDP by definition is an abstract measure of the country and not of an individual. It makes no sense to go back and say “hey, this one person is poor despite rising GDP”. Maybe some people are not able to see the big picture and will get stuck on individual examples?
Latvians suffered tremendously in the first years of the post-Soviet period. We never experienced famine, all the services were still working and everybody got basic healthcare and social needs covered. But income, or rather inflation made everyone very poor and limited of what we could buy. And the fact that goods finally were freely available in shops but no money to buy them probably was like psychological torture. Depression, alcoholism, suicides increased, life expectancy decreased.
Eventually the economy grew, people started earning more money, Latvia joined the EU which accelerated growth even more, some industries were restarted, yet many people emigrated to western countries for work because they wanted even higher income now instead of waiting 20-30 years until Latvia catches up with the west.
Okay, then, that's something else, and that seems to explain a lot if you actually are from Latvia. As an American, I am way more amenable to arguments that we are suffering from success, and to some extent, our nation likely barely suffered the kind of privation experienced by Eastern Europe.
The US had the Great Depression. I think post-Soviet dip was even deeper than that but clearly Americans have experienced something similar. It is just that people who experienced it are no longer alive, so you don't think that it was a big deal.
I really hope that Trump doesn't cause something similar to great depression. But you should listen to those who warn about that possibility and work hard to prevent it. It is a serious matter.
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My hypothesis is Trump did not think the stock market would react as negatively as it did, so he has since backtracked.
It is quite an indictment of the Trump administration's competence for them to not know the stock market would respond like that. We'll see if we get anywhere on retreat. April 9 changed the flavor, but not the severity, of the damage. The small shift toward sanity on car parts is good news, but we still have the Section 232s looming over a lot of things, Trump getting played by China, and the 10% tariffs that seemingly are not going to go away.
Trump had made it abundantly clear during campaign and after winning that there would be tariffs, and even when he floated some tariffs in January 2025 and Feb against Mexico and Canada , the stock market brushed it off, only to crash a month ago. The market seemed to have no problem with tariffs until only a month ago.
The market didn't believe it would actually happen until a month ago!
he literally did https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/02/fact-sheet-president-donald-j-trump-imposes-tariffs-on-imports-from-canada-mexico-and-china/
see for yourself
Huh? The Feb 2 tariffs on Canada and Mexico never took effect. They were set to begin the 4th, but were delayed on the 3rd. This is a strange point for you to bring up since I feel that it is an obvious reason for the market to indeed believe that cooler heads would prevail.
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Imagine you knew in advance that covid restrictions would get introduced all around the world in 2020. Would you predict that the stock market goes down? Of course, you would.
I happen to believe that these restrictions were mostly unnecessary and due to overreaction. But at least covid was real to elderly and risk groups. Increased mortality among them was real due to covid (but also from misapplied restrictions).
Even if covid wasn't real and it was all Chinese hoax the same restrictions would have caused stock market to drop.
Tariffs are exactly like that. If you knew in advance that such tariffs would get implemented, you could bet safely that the stock market is going to react very negatively. That they are introduced to imaginary problem, doesn't change their effects.
Eventually people will have enough and will remove Trump from office and it will recover. I predict that Elon Musk will come out as a winner despite all his mistakes because he seems to be the one disagreeing with Trump (by openly stating that he wishes for zero tariffs between Europe). His loyalty to free market will be rewarded in long term even if we don't see how it could happen now.
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