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Notes -
What if our fundamentals are exactly backwards?
New to The Motte, looking for constructive, critical discussion.
Here's an example of what I mean by a "fundamental":
Every economic system that has seemed credible to most people since the dawn of civilization has revolved around the legal establishment and safeguarding of property through the concept of ownership.
But what is ownership? I have my own ideas, but I asked ChatGPT and was surprised that it pretty much hit the nail on the head: the definitional characteristic of ownership is the legal right to deprive others.
This has been such a consistently universal view that very few people question it. Even fewer have thought through a cogent alternative. Most people go slack-jawed at the suggestion that an alternative is possible.
Here's something from years back, before I'd zeroed in on the perverse nature of ownership:
Anyone want to brainstorm a viable alternative to "ownership"?
/images/17459352527399495.webp
I think the main problem is that sharing can be much more complicated. It's much easier to divide resources and manage them independently of each other, than to share their use, as interests often collide and conflict management is difficult. I would love to hear suggestions of viable alternatives to ownership. I have thought about this problem before in exactly the same manner. I think it might be easier to create more resources (even the resources currently thought to be "limited" like land) through technology and humanity's colonization of space than to solve the sharing problem.
It's "more complicated" if you unconsciously assume the perspective of an overlord responsible to make sure it works. If you're just one of the guys talking how you're going to divvy it up, naw -- not complicated at all. Plus, you're all in it together seeking the best outcome for everyone involved, so the entire proposition is radically different. I'd love to hear alternatives to principled preemptive deprivation, too.
If I have the legal right to deprive access to a thing, then I am that things overlord. I have great power and authority over that thing. By your own definition we are overlords over our property, why would we not assume that perspective?
You are conflating talking about sharing with sharing. No explaination as to why sharing is not complicated. Why is it not complicated?
Im not in it with you, so how could we be in it together? Im not seeking the best outcome for everyone - I want the best outcome for me and people I know and like. If I am forced to share with you I will take advantage of you as much as I can. What is your plan for sharing with people like me?
OK. I don't take that perspective because lording itself disgusts me, regardless of who does it, and people who lord it over anything/anyone disgust me. I'm not aware that I said anything which could be construed as telling you not to assume that perspective. Why are you attracted to that perspecive?
Well, no. Read it that way if you prefer. I'm talking about talking about sharing in the context of actually sharing. Talking about it is part of doing it. Apparently, you've found sharing to be complicated? I haven't. "Why is it not complicated?" strikes me as an odd question. My son at 2-y-o would ask me, "What's that, daddy?" all the time. I'd tell him, and then he'd stump me. I distinctly remember once, driving, he pointed to a dog and asked, "What's that, daddy?"
"That's a dog, buddy."
"Why?"
Got me every time lol.
Good to know. How would I share with you or someone like you? As best I could without letting your egocentrism negatively affect the people I love and care about. Negatively impact me or mine to any serious degree, and I'll just shut you down.
How are you going to shut him down if you don’t have the legal right to deprive him?
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