This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I was reading along fine until your critique of Japan, which I found rather superficial. You may be right that Japan is in decline, at least according to your own metrics. But I don't feel the ways you suggest can be felt when you're eating the egg sandwiches and milling through Shinjuku station. But then I'm in Kansai. Nothing feels wrong to me about the old men in Mah Jong parlors or the Komeda Coffee chains that actually spell coffee in kanji (珈琲), at which point you know you're not in Starbucks. To me, these places are amazing. Old men in old men coffee shops, grandma playing ground golf in the fenced in area beside the rice paddy -- these are people living their lives--and, crucially, living their lives socially--not rotting in front of a mobile phone. Or at least not yet.
I've spent less time in France, but when I was there, in particular when I was in Paris, I had less of a transcendent experience than you seem to have had in other areas. And when I return to the US I find myself typically in a constant state of wonder and affection for almost everyone I speak to--generally interaction is the key. I can easily despise randos I never talk to.
Just a few thoughts. I enjoy effort posts almost always even when I disagree with the vibe.
I'm glad you shared your thoughts regarding Japan, thank you! I know you live there as I've read posts from you before. I don't doubt that you have a more intimate knowledge of the country and culture than I do (myself having spent only about 5 months in the country on three separate trips between 2007 and 2022). I probably came across as more harsh and critical than I meant to. I really like Japan a lot. The kissaten and mah jong parlors are amazing to me too, but undoubtedly signals of stagnation. It's actually deeply respectful and cool in a way- I wish the rust belt city I grew up in kept its own culture alive to with the same affection and attention to detail that Japan is doing.
And on the other hand, I don't actually always have a transcendent experience of France. I mentioned that I've been there more than any other country outside my own which is true but I don't really know why. The social mores are opaque and exhausting to me. Every time I leave the country I feel relief that I don't have to worry about pissing off a shopkeeper without understanding what I did. But all of that is true even while the positive things I said about it are also true.
Glad you enjoyed my post, thanks for engaging!
Por que no los dos? It's not mutually exclusive.
What about China, where you have greybeards playing majong in the shadows of 5-year old L.E.D.ed-out towers? There are a lot of old people in China, and despite the Cultural Revolution, plenty of old stuff and old vibes, even as there's a lot of optimism and striving forward. Yes, it's a harsh man-eat-man world, and the Lying Flat Movement might not feel irrational for many, but when I was there in the early 2010s, the mood seemed overall optimistic. I haven't returned since, and China changes so fast and is a big country so I don't know what the aggregate mood is... but I doubt it's the same sort of checked-out resignation I hear casually invoked on West Coast US. Not to jump on one little thing you said, but I think the critical aspects are the growth, and the feeling of personal agency. It seemed to me that Chinese people, while understanding the corruption etc, still believed that if they worked really, really, really fucking hard they could better their circumstances. Many Americans seem to feel resigned to a decline, but also don't really seem to have any specific idea of what that looks like, and can't articulate it beyond vibes.
America is inevitably going to decline because there’s nowhere else to go. Obviously America could keep growing. That’s possible. But it doesn’t feel that way because a lot of the growth recently looks fake. There aren’t more houses, because America grew by financial maneuvers the average person doesn’t understand. Not by building.
So Americans are just mind-broken? The US has everything it needs to build houses! Just because the recent "growth" has been a facade, there's no reason we can't get rid of bullshit jobs and teach them to weld. If Chinese can work round-the-clock to throw up twenty story tower blocks in just a couple years, there's no reason Americans can't other than unnecessary regulations. I'm not talking about safety standards, but stuff like nighttime construction noise ordinances and onerous environmental review. It seems that at every level there are entrenched institutions enforcing pay-to-play systems, rent-seeking and restricting access to the ability to do basically anything. We just need to get out of our own way! This goes for Canada too! Do we just need to wait for the boomers to die?
More options
Context Copy link
LOLWUT? Also
About a million new privately-owned single family houses a year. Plus 600,000 other privately owned housing units.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link