site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   30669 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 21, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

but I suspect they're roughly equivalent to the Log Cabin Republicans or many other "we're tribe X, but we hold unconventional views for members of tribe X" groups

Hold on, how is that supposed to work?

The Log Cabin Republicans were not representative of the gay community, because they were on board with the Republican Party platform. It's completely reasonable for gay people to say "we have nothing in common with those guys, except for our sexuality".

Gays Against Groomers, are a single-issue group devoted to pointing out the bad apples. You can't say "we have nothing in common with them except for our sexuality" while still distancing yourself from the bad apples.

I don't think Gays Against Groomers should be banned

Well, the problem is that they were. So not only there seem to be bad apples in the education system, the moderation of Big Tech platforms seems to be heavily influenced by some sort of pro-bad-apple club, making it even more important to point them out, in my opinion.

The Log Cabin Republicans were not representative of the gay community, because they were on board with the Republican Party platform.

I think I might have been mixing up the Log Cabin Republicans and The Lincoln Project in my head. It was some group that at some point here on the Motte, I saw someone say something to the effect of, "if you model them as Democrats trying to sabotage the the Republican party from the inside, you'll rarely be wrong about how they'll act in a particular situation."

It's completely reasonable for gay people to say "we have nothing in common with those guys, except for our sexuality".

I agree that it is completely reasonable for gay people to say that.

Well, the problem is that they were. So not only there seem to be bad apples in the education system, the moderation of Big Tech platforms seems to be heavily influenced by some sort of pro-bad-apple club, making it even more important to point them out, in my opinion.

By all means point it out. I'm hardly a fan of the way many Big Tech platforms handle dissident speech.

I do also think there are different levels of "cancellation" and different amounts of blame groups that try to cancel as a result. If 5 people complain and your boss fires you for a dissident opinion expressed outside of work, then only 6 people should have the blame. If a million people on Twitter report your account, and Twitter moderation finally gets around to banning your account for a dissident opinion you expressed, then that is more reasonable to consider the responsibility of a larger group of people, and a system that enables their complaints to drown out people making points.

I think I might have been mixing up the Log Cabin Republicans and The Lincoln Project in my head. It was some group that at some point here on the Motte, I saw someone say something to the effect of, "if you model them as Democrats trying to sabotage the the Republican party from the inside, you'll rarely be wrong about how they'll act in a particular situation."

I don't think that analogy works either. I'm gonna take a wild guess that the guy who didn't like the Lincoln Project was prudly pro Trump. To make it analogous to the groomer discourse, he'd have to say something like "Trump is a bad apple, but the Lincoln Project want to sabotage the Republican party from the inside". That's without going into any potential policy disagreements, since we know the LP are a bunch of elitist neocons, while Trump supporters tend to be populist isolationists, so I guess there'd have to be a group called "Populist Nationalists Against Trump" or something, that he'd go off on.

If 5 people complain and your boss fires you for a dissident opinion expressed outside of work, then only 6 people should have the blame.

Sure, which is why people criticize groomers instead of the entire LGBT community, or the woke, instead of the entire left.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats