What difference does it make? He may have invaded because he thought the moon was made of cheese, it’s not a legitimate grievance.
Either might doesn’t make right in which case russia’s security needs do not trump its former satellites’ needs to join rival alliances, or it does then russia is the weak one and its wants are subordinated to the US-EU’s.
If you had read the article, then you would know that Putin’s primary concern was not with NATO expansion as such, but with Russian exclusion from the post-Cold War European security architecture of which NATO was the centerpiece. What you are asserting is a non-sequitur.
Again, main disagreement is I don't think it's a legitimate grievance, as the article keeps asserting. So whether he thought he was excluded from modern architecture, or he thought he was Peter I or some other illegitimate nonsense is irrelevant.
What does this "inclusion in the architecture" mean if not being granted the power to prevent neighbours from choosing allies according to their own security and economic needs?
It’s a euphemism, typical of the two-faced discourse of russian diplomacy and its defenders. The idea is they should have been granted extra powers, officially under a banner of good etiquette, inclusiveness and all things nice, but implicitly backed by the cold threat of military action against the weak if their 'needs' were not 'respected'. That’s the path they went down in Ukraine. They ate their cake, and now that it’s proven indigestive, they want to go back to having it.
Sad to see hangers-on like you fish out their outdated arguments from the trash can.
Amadan
"I would put a screwdriver through your eyeballs if I could"
fuckduck9000 1yr ago
Sad to see hangers-on like you fish out their outdated arguments from the trash can.
The rest of your argument is fine, but please do not resort to ad hominems. Russia seems to be one of several topics where people have a problem just saying "I think your analysis is wrong" without adding "Because you are obviously a shill for < Putin >/(((The West)))/whatever."
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What difference does it make? He may have invaded because he thought the moon was made of cheese, it’s not a legitimate grievance.
Either might doesn’t make right in which case russia’s security needs do not trump its former satellites’ needs to join rival alliances, or it does then russia is the weak one and its wants are subordinated to the US-EU’s.
If you had read the article, then you would know that Putin’s primary concern was not with NATO expansion as such, but with Russian exclusion from the post-Cold War European security architecture of which NATO was the centerpiece. What you are asserting is a non-sequitur.
Again, main disagreement is I don't think it's a legitimate grievance, as the article keeps asserting. So whether he thought he was excluded from modern architecture, or he thought he was Peter I or some other illegitimate nonsense is irrelevant.
Well, I have no clue why you think it’s illegitimate and you haven’t given an argument for that, so there’s nothing for anyone to go on there.
What does this "inclusion in the architecture" mean if not being granted the power to prevent neighbours from choosing allies according to their own security and economic needs?
It’s a euphemism, typical of the two-faced discourse of russian diplomacy and its defenders. The idea is they should have been granted extra powers, officially under a banner of good etiquette, inclusiveness and all things nice, but implicitly backed by the cold threat of military action against the weak if their 'needs' were not 'respected'. That’s the path they went down in Ukraine. They ate their cake, and now that it’s proven indigestive, they want to go back to having it.
Sad to see hangers-on like you fish out their outdated arguments from the trash can.
The rest of your argument is fine, but please do not resort to ad hominems. Russia seems to be one of several topics where people have a problem just saying "I think your analysis is wrong" without adding "Because you are obviously a shill for < Putin >/(((The West)))/whatever."
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link