site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

105
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Meh. This just looks like a gloomy and pessimistic worldview that conveniently absolves the one holding it from any need for action, while staying sufficiently vague to resist falsification.

Such people are ideal, from the perspective of Leviathan/Cthulhu.

Leviathan and Cthulhu are mythical creatures - they don't exist. You're talking about vague impersonal forces, but those typically don't act like agents that plan for outcomes - unless there is an actual organization making out those plans and carrying them out. There are two pretty different views:

  • An actual conspiracy, with a shadowy group orchestrating the things you point at

  • No such group, just a lot of people each following their individual incentives.

I find the "individuals and their incentives" story much more believable, and (to me) your post comes off as gesturing towards the "shadowy conspiracy" while avoiding spelling it out.

And the incentives are much more fruitful to talk about - you can actually talk about facts, about things that could be changed. For example, why aren't people having kids ? Could be the cost of real estate, could be the cost of schools, could be dumb laws about car seats, etc. - and each of those are topics that can be analyzed, evaluated, solutions can be found, etc.

Not OP, and I could be reading between the lines in a wishful thinking kinda way, but I took the post differently. You seem to have read it as if they are defining causation for the described conditions. I read it more as observing the conditions and pointing out what results, and who benefits. I don't think that's incompatible with your "individuals following their own incentives" (which I agree with, btw).

As for Leviathan and Cthulhu, it seems pretty clear to me that these are invoked in the same way as Scott Alexander's legendary Moloch.

But here I am putting words in someone else's mouth, which is not usually productive or wise. Apologies in advance if I should have stayed quiet instead.

(minor edit for accuracy)