This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Kiwi should not have done that, and should have ramped up their actions against Keffals even further, while staking out a clear position that Cloudflare is no ally of theirs. Do not kowtow to your enemies in the hopes they take pity on you. Not only does it never work, it's spiritually emasculating and deeply shameful.
Empires, nations, countries, and large entities "kowtow to their enemies" in specific ways all the time, strategically, for success. Whether as a trick or just to reduce likelihood of death. Every historical figure we see as masculine or honorable or powerful did things to appease others constantly. They also took action to slaughter their enemies, hear the lamentations of their women, etc - and often more latter than former (or often the reverse) - but refusing to make any concessions, even if they help you win overall, is very stupid and means you lose.
Kiwifarms' actions are already constrained in a million ways by conventional morality, the state, and what hosting platforms are allowed to do. So are yours, so are mine, so are everyone's, it will always be "how constrained, and in what way", not "unconstrained". For instance, Josh can't even enter a gentlemen's duel with Prince - extremely dishonorable! Nor can they - legally - break into keffals' internet accounts and get stuff (despite some members either doing so or reporting so on the forum). And they would do the latter a lot more if they could. They already censor dox, putting it behind a login-to-view box - already kowtowing! And they already submit to their enemies in practice by being subject to the "Cathedral" - as josh named in the post - 's legal system, economic system, and society. Staking a post in some minor, specific subconflict that happens to be particularly obvious at the moment is just a strategic error.
These are not warring states and militaries. Kiwifarms has no ability to threaten or harm Cloudflare, and so 'buying time' is pointless. Cloudflare will always stomp on them so long as they use Cloudflare's services. The only right move is to refuse to heel and find someone else.
kiwifarms.net says: Due to an imminent and emergency threat to human life, the content of this site is blocked from being accessed through Cloudflare’s infrastructure. For more details, please see: https://blog.cloudflare.com/kiwifarms-blocked/
Likely, the causes were both internal and external pressure and specific, recent posts on kiwifarms or elsewhere that cloudflare interpreted to be an "imminent and emergency threat to human life". Kiwifarms should have attempted to reduce outward signs of the latter to keep their site up. It might - or even probably wouldn't - have worked, but is worth doing anyway.
Some users might argue otherwise - "we're spreading the truth, how disgusting the libs are, they can't let people see it because the regime would collapse". Most kiwis aren't there, it really is just a site for laughing at freaks, but there were a few posts to that effect that got a bunch of positive reactions. Ofc this is ... not entirely wrong, but wrong in every important way there's probably some impact of kiwifarms existing, but not in any simple way like that.
Yeah, if they had somewhere else to go. Josh isn't optimistic, as the recent t.me post shows. "refusing to heel", and having CF take away your site, is still losing. It's much, much worse for both 'laughing at lolcows' and 'spreading how disgusting trans grooming is' than wordfiltering the word 'bomb'.
Kiwifarms has taken hundreds of actions exactly like 'censoring a bit more to survive' over the past decade. Claiming this one is dishonorable ... it's a website for laughing at lolcows. If a bull running at you, you should move out of the way, whether you can shoot it later or not.
"Finding a gun to shoot the bull with" and "not moving out of the way" aren't the same action, at all. The latter doesn't help you win. Just because some meekly let the bull rampage - the answer isn't "letting it hit you in the chest".
There is no gun that can shoot Cloudflare. There is no action that can be taken against Cloudflare now or in the future. Cloudflare wants them gone, and is committed to their existential termination. Bowing down to them is simply pathetic behavior that will not change the outcome. Groveling is always the wrong move, even if they can find no other refuge.
Cloudflare is not a charging bull. It's not a mindless animal. It's a collection of thinking, reasoned sadists, who want Kiwifarms gone but more than that want Kiwifarms humiliated and broken. Being removed is inevitable; giving Cloudflare more satisfaction is wholly unnecessary.
This doesn't make sense given the way cloudflare acted. Probably Prince genuinely wanted to keep them, and chose to ban them for a variety of complicated (this does not imply good) reasons. I'm suggesting there were ways to influence the contingencies such that kiwi might've survived longer. The long article about "why we wouldn't refuse services" and then immediately after banning for supposed extreme risk isn't compatible with cloudflare "wanting them gone, certainly, entirely", because ... of how long prince kept them when most other companies wouldn't have. they could've just kicked kiwifarms years ago, there've been several such campaigns in the past. Again, this doesn't mean they wouldn't have anyway in practice, no matter what they did, i'm not sure tbh.
can you clarify the context in which you argue this? Groveling is a very useful move for people, organizations, even nations, and has saved many from death - which is why it exists. And "temporarily banning certain words in the thread" (and - not even telling anyone you're doing that) is not groveling in any obvious sense.
this doesn't make sense at all. cloudflare kept kiwifarms up until a large social media campaign to drop them. and ... "sadists"? what? how are they sadists? "humiliated and broken"?
Even if the libs/cathedral/etc are your mortal enemy in every possible way, that doesn't mean they are "sadists" and "want to humiliate cloudflare in every way because they are sadists".
Hard disagree. It makes perfect sense as I've argued elsewhere, which is how I was able to accurately predict Cloudflare's actions and was not caught off guard, unlike many who thought differently. Cloudflare is a tentacle of Left, Inc., and its facade of libertarian attitude is a relic of Old Internet mores which no longer exist and are no longer believed in. The progressive leviathan will continue to crush, oppress, and destroy, and there is nothing anyone can do to change it from the inside. No matter how much you beg your masters to take pity on you, they will not. They do not have it in their hearts.
The only path to success, long-term, is a total rejection of the progressive beast. Gather state power and martial power; accumulate resources; take both legal and extra-legal means to inflict harm on the corporations and the people that comprise them.
You know what won't stop Keffals? Fedposting bomb threats. You know what would stop Keffals? Actually doing it. You know what won't sway Prince? Apologizing, groveling, sniveling, accommodating. You know what would? Imposing costs on him as a person.
This is something the progressives have learned much, much better than non-progressives, for whatever reason. Progressives have a total war mentality. It works.
It's absolutely groveling in an obvious sense. It's the same thing Zorba did with AEO on Reddit for ages, with the end result being we're all here, anyway. Sucking off your betters so that they can enjoy the sadistic thrill of watching you squirm unhappily might buy you some time, but it will never actually lead to a good outcome for you. Just bite it.
But it "proves too much" - if cloudflare was entirely anti-kiwifarms, they would've folded in 2017, surely?
there are literally multiple different people in cloudflare. Prince is the CEO and as such probably makes decisions, but he does so for reasons, needs to make his people happy, investors, customers, etc.
Actually killing keffals would ... uh ... not help stop progressives? It'd give them way more reason to fight back, while not materially impacting them at all (he's a random trans streamer popular on twitter). You'd argue that the way to stop christians was showing jesus's body really obviously on the cross, making it crystal clear his hands were bleeding, just in case any peasants missed it. Tell the world about john brown, so they learn from his example!
Okay, so you're kicked, then you bite. And what happens to dogs that bite? They get put down. This is the strategy - "this dog is dangerous. he bites when we kick him". Provoke the right, use their fighting back as an excuse to totally destroy them. Biting doesn't stop the progressives. Actually taking power would - killing keffals takes as much power away from progressives as calling them 'racist' does
It's fun to make your enemies squirm. It's fun to make them obey you. It's fun to gather them in one place as a harmless boogeyman you can point to to help conjure up public support and sympathy. Up until they stop being so harmless, and someone actually wants to send a message, at which point there is nothing that can be done.
Agreed. Prince is the most public-facing of the tentacles, not the only one.
I am still unsure to what extent I can advocate political violence here. Suffice to say "if you kill your enemies they win" was silly when Trudeau said it, and it's silly when you say it. You would in fact stop progressivism in its tracks if being a degenerate strongly elevated your risk of death. See: why even the woke don't tend to touch Islam.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link