site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

105
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Strange - I see large segments of society behave like rabid dogs, and instead of being shot they secure victory after victory and bathe in endless rewards for mashing defect in the prisoner's game we call coexistence. How curious that society bends over backwards to appease left-approved violence, but right-approved violence is surely doomed to failure. Why, it must just be a simple rule of nature that bad things only work for leftists.

Alternatively, perhaps bad things just work, period, and there's an influential chunk of society keenly interested in making sure their enemy tribe doesn't realize this.

this is exactly what moldbug's terrorism as folk activism or breivik was about. The left can kill and smash as much as they want because they're left wing, and because SOME in power supported them. If you shoot keffals, nobody's gonna support you. No NLG will break you out. No politicians will pardon you. You'll just be all over the internet as christchurch 2, shooting a bunch of fweaking innocent people for no reason, evil right wingers are a threat to society.

The problem is that in this metaphor, capturing (and, of course, exaggerating) the vast difference in institutional power, only you are the dog. A dog can see its fellow dogs getting kicked, dragged around by the leash and euthanised by "rabid" humans, but lashing out at its human owner when the human owner already thinks of it as a problem dog will lead to worse outcomes than, say, becoming the maximally instagrammable pomeranian that has trained its dog mommy so much that it's really not clear anymore who exactly owns whom.

"How curious that society bends over backwards to appease human-approved violence, but dog-approved violence is surely doomed to failure"

A sufficiently brutish dog can kill a full-grown man. If you must lose, take someone down with you.

Alternatively, maybe things only work for leftists, good or bad.

Yeah, that's certainly something the leftist leviathan would want to convince people of. Color me skeptical.

This is about where I am, too. It seems that the moral high ground is more of a cliff edge off which you will inevitably be pushed.

You remember the post about how a system that optimises for only one metric will eventually end up sacrificing all others in pursuit of it? It's that, and the criteria is victory. You're either willing to sacrifice everything to win, or you're destined to lose.

You have to be willing to burn and salt the earth.