This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It is functionally a reward though, and one that people are keen to give to their kids. First because the kid get access to all the benefits of being an American, but secondly that a lot of immigration law can be gamed by having a minor child who is an American. Things like priority for immigration through family connections. Or being able to live in Mexico and send your kids to American schools, or access to American healthcare. There are cases in which women will wait until literally in labor before crossing the border in hopes that the baby will be born in America and be American.
I’m not opposed to granting citizenship to a child born to legal immigrants who have lived in America for years and work and pay taxes and are working toward citizenship. It’s reasonable that if the family moved here and wants to remain that the child gets to be born an American. What isn’t right is a person sneaking in with the intention of giving birth in America and no actual legal connections to America beyond popping out a kid.
The gist of your argument is, "illegal immigration is bad. Receiving the benefits of having a citizen child is good. If we link the latter to the former we are giving people good things for doing bad things. This is unjust." I disagree with the premise (illegal immigration is better than legal immigration because they have to pay taxes but don't get welfare), but admit that it's logically sound. It's also, however, missing the point. Birthright citizenship isn't about the immigrant, it's about the baby. Yes, those children benefit from schools and healthcare-- but so do the children of american citizens. Neither the child by blood nor the child by soil have a "right" to that education or healthcare, but we as a society have pragmatically and compassionately decided to invest in our children in the (well founded) hope that they will one day repay the favor. And in the meantime, we expect our children-- of citizens and noncitizens both-- to earn their rights to vote and run for office, as delimited by the laws that make explicit our social contract.
If you think that education or healthcare are bad investments, you're welcome to argue for that. If you think that illegal immigrants should receive fewer benefits for giving birth to citizen children, you're welcome to argue that too. If you think our social contract asks for too little in return for too much.... well, I'm already pretty sympathetic to that position. But that's all orthogonal to my argument that blood confers no special qualities relative to soil.
I’m arguing that having a citizen in the family does in fact benefit the entire family including entitling the child to benefits that might well be unavailable in the home country thus creating a strong inducement to do anything possible to have the baby in America. And that without skin in the game of some form, it’s a big problem.
And the whole thing is about the immigrant because the baby doesn’t drop down from outer space. The stork didn’t deliver the baby, Scottie didn’t beam down the baby, the baby came from a woman who had sex with her husband. And therefore creating benefits for the baby by necessity creates benefits for tge family that created the baby. And I think you should very careful about how tge thing is handled.
The children belongs, from birth, to the united states of america. They cannot renounce their citizenship without paying an exit tax. That is skin in the game. The phrase " entitling the child to benefits that might well be unavailable in the home country" is logically incoherent on its face because america is the child's home country. The child doesn't get any extra special bonus benefit for illegally immigrating-- the child is just an american citizen, and always has been, and gets no more or less liberty or responsibility than any other american citizenship.
No. Not, "by necessity." As a practical measure. There's a difference. From the moment the child is born on American soil the USA arrogates the right to seize the child from their parents, put it in protective custody, and kick its parents out of the country. The USA doesn't usually do that because it rarely makes sense to force taxpayers to raise the child instead of its parent, but the right to do so exists, is sometimes applied, and is uncontroversially constitutional. (There are laws that limit how often the government does this in practice, but the very fact that they are laws, rather than amendments, is the proof in the pudding). Parents are not their children, and children are not their parents. Whether the parent has any right to be in the country has no bearing on whether the child has a right to be in the country-- the child's citizenship belongs to them and them alone. Abrogating someone's rights based on the behavior of their relatives is simply not compatible with an individualist, democratic state.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link