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naraburns  nihil supernum  3yr ago (text post)   33996 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 5, 2022

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The left, once they won on same-sex marriage pivoted to this specific battle and pushed it forward with aplomb, anything the right did was directly in response to that.

The left pushed it forward? To my memory, the North Carolina "bathroom bill" was what pushed the trans rights discussion to the national stage. You apparently remember things differently? Wikipedia does mention various events leading up to the passage of that bill.

  • -10

Yes, it is right there in your link:

On February 22, 2016, the Charlotte City Council passed by a 7-4 vote the Ordinance 7056, a non-discrimination ordinance prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity in public accommodations or by passenger vehicles for hire or city contractors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Facilities_Privacy_%26_Security_Act#Background_and_passage

The right was responding to a direct action the left took in favor of removing the status quo.

"Oh, but the right escalated it!"

Okay. Remember what happened after that?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/13/obama-public-schools-transgender-access-restrooms

Or is it ONLY an escalation when the right does it?

But let's wind back the clock a bit further:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-quiet-transgender-revolution/2015/11/30/6879527e-95e4-11e5-b5e4-279b4501e8a6_story.html

Obama being the same guy who ran on the concept of marriage being between a man and a woman then oversaw the enshrinement of same-sex marriage into the constitution. Remember?

The Department of Health and Human Services now allows Medicare funding to offset the medical costs of a gender transition and has warned insurers that prohibiting coverage for such transitions can be discriminatory.

The Agriculture Department bars discrimination based on gender identity in any USDA program, while the Department of Housing and Urban Development has applied a similar provision to its federal housing programs.

The changes began quietly when Obama ordered all agencies in 2009 to review what could be done to eliminate disparities between same-sex and straight couples, a directive that administration officials ultimately interpreted much more broadly.

You notice that the left isn't HIDING the fact that it is pushing this agenda? Indeed, celebrating it? Back in late 2015?

Obama wasn't doing all this stuff in response to the right attacking transgender persons or passing laws that oppressed transgenders in particular.

He was doing it because, as mentioned, THE LEFT IMMEDIATELY PIVOTED FROM SAME SEX MARRIAGE TO TRANSGENDER RIGHTS. As stated multiple times now.

This is a basic fact that I am pretty convinced on, and you've presented no evidence to change my mind.

Indeed, it looks like the left was planning all along on this tactic, and what we're seeing now is simply the continuation of their long-term strategy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-quiet-transgender-revolution/2015/11/30/6879527e-95e4-11e5-b5e4-279b4501e8a6_story.html

Thanks for the reference. That answers my question by providing actual evidence that the political discussion of trans rights in the past ~decade was in fact not an out-of-the-blue move by the right.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Okay, I know that's not what you meant. Gender-segregation of bathroom by sex-on-birth-certificate as opposed to apparent gender is new.

  • -10

It's not so much new, as non-existent. No one cares about your birth certificate, people care about what sex you are.

If no one cares, then why did the law under discussion get passed which does the following:

The bill amended state law to preempt any anti-discrimination ordinances passed by local communities and, controversially, compelled schools and state and local government facilities containing single-gender washrooms to only allow people of the corresponding sex as listed on their birth certificate to use them

Because they were hoping the sex listed on their birth certificate is going to correspond to their sex.

My understanding of the social norm is that people would be unhappy if someone who appeared to be a woman entered the men's bathroom or if someone who appeared to be a man entered the women's bathroom. I find it hard to believe that instead of going by appearance, checking sex recorded on government issued ID is something that would have occurred to anyone prior to this Culture War fight.

My understanding of the social norm is that people would be unhappy if someone who appeared to be a woman entered the men's bathroom

This strongly contradicts my experiences in men's restrooms. Women seem rather entitled to using the men's room when theirs is occupied, with the concern being for their privacy and safety rather than the men's even when arguments against it are made.

Yeah, no way. You're saying that pre-, say, 2010, if a masculine looking woman went to the women's bathroom, someone got upset, and she pulled out her ID to prove she's female, people would still be upset at her that she didn't go to the men's room?

I'm saying that I can't imagine "pulling out her ID" ever being a step in resolving that conflict.

I can totally believe a person with ambiguous gender presentation not being welcome in either bathroom.

Why not? It was an easy and relatively non-intrusive way of providing some sort of confirmation for your birth sex.

In any case, the only way your original claim would be true, is if people were still upset upon getting the confirmation.

Progressives use the word "gender" to mean some sort of inherent essence of manness or womanness, that is seperate from your body, rather than a synonym for biological sex. So he used the different meanings of the word to jokingly claim you're agreeing with him.

Further, he believes the separation of bathrooms/locker rooms/etc. has always been done on the gender-as-inherent-essence basis, and that it's the conservatives who were trying to change the rules recently.

The original pushing forward of LGBT issues was actually still done with gay rights, when they sued that Colorado bakery, and we went from "just leave us alone" to "bake the cake, bigot".

As for trans issues, was the enstunnening and enbravening of Caitlyn Jenner before or after the bathroom bill?

As for trans issues, was the enstunnening and enbravening of Caitlyn Jenner before or after the bathroom bill?

Quoting Wikipedia:

Jenner publicly came out as a trans woman in April 2015, announcing her new name in July of that year. From 2015 to 2016, she starred in the reality television series I Am Cait, which focused on her gender transition.

The NC bathroom bill passed March 23, 2016. The Wikipedia article claims it was in response to a Charlotte city ordinance passed February 22, 2016. Both of those dates are after April 2015, so I guess Caitlyn Jenner coming out as trans was first.

(I honestly did not know who Caitlyn Jenner was past "famous trans woman" until looking up the Wikipedia article to make this post.)

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