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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31669 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 5, 2022

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Using an avenue of interstate commerce to commit fraud is indeed a federal crime, as is conspiring to deprive citizens of the right to vote through the use of deception

This is an obvious fig leaf for attempting to control political discourse.

Attempting to trick people into not casting a valid vote is not "political discourse" any more than physically intimidating voters is political discourse, Do you maintain that the FBI has no valid role in preventing that? Whether what the FBI did in this case was an attempt to control political discourse is a different question than whether the FBI can legitimately seek to prevent this sort of election fraud in principle. Your claim that the answer to the latter question is "no", given that the activity in question is illegal, makes no sense. "This law enforcement agency has no valid role in enforcing the law that they are charged with enforcing" is a nonsensical claim.

Attempting to trick people into not casting a valid vote is not "political discourse" any more than physically intimidating voters is political discourse

These are two entirely different things. The FBI has no valid role in preventing the former, perhaps unless those attempting to do so are falsely representing themselves as government officials. Just talking shit like "hey, you can vote for CandidateThatSucks by text" is still protected by the First Amendment; physically intimidating voters is not.

And this was certainly not all the FBI was doing.

hey, you can vote for CandidateThatSucks by text" is still protected by the First Amendment;

I am afraid that I am going to have to ask for authority for that claim, because:

content-based restrictions on speech have been permitted, as a general matter, only when confined to the few “ ‘historic and traditional categories [of expression] long familiar to the bar,’ ” Id., at ___ (slip op., at 5) (quoting Simon & Schuster, Inc. v. Members of N. Y. State Crime Victims Bd., 502 U.S. 105, 127 (1991) (Kennedy, J., concurring in judgment)). Among these categories are . . . speech integral to criminal conduct . . . [and]fraud[.]

United States v. Alvarez, 567 U.S. 709 (2012). And see * Illinois ex rel. Madigan v. Telemarketing Assocs., Inc.*, 538 U.S. 600 (2003) (upholding a statute prohibiting fraudulent speech, but advising that a "[f]alse statement alone does not subject a [speaker] to fraud liability" unless there is also intent to deceive)

Damn, better not tell any jokes on your private farm, where you only grow crops for your own consumption. You never know who might be listening.

You seem to be arguing that a law which seeks to prevent someone from depriving others of the right to vote in federal elections is somehow no more proper than is a law which limits growing crops for your own consumption, which is a claim whose legitimacy is less than self-evident. Regardless, whether a law is or is not sound policy is irrelevant to whether a law enforcement agency has a "valid role" in enforcing that law. OP's claim to the contrary was, to quote Justice Thomas in another context, "uncommonly silly."

No, you misunderstood. I'm saying that since growing your own crops, for on your own farm, strictly for your own private consumption is interstate commerce, according to you, telling someone an obvious joke while on your farm is also "using an avenue of interstate commerce to commit fraud" and "conspiring to deprive citizens of the right to vote".

You don't understand the relevant legal issue. "Engaging in interstate commerce" is not the same as "using an avenue of interstate commerce"; using an avenue of interstate commerce is a subset of the former. So, ehether or not I am "engaging in interstate commerce" when I grow food for my own consumption has no bearing on whether I am using an avenue of interstate commerce when I use the mail, or make an interstate phone call, or email someone in another state.

How, pray tell, would you engage in interstate commerce without using an avenue for it?

I did not say that you could: " using an avenue of interstate commerce is a subset of the former."

Well then, if growing your own crops, for on your own farm, strictly for your own private consumption is interstate commerce, then somewhere during those activities you must be using an avenue for interstate commerce, which means that if during that time you tell someone an obvious joke, you are "using an avenue of interstate commerce to commit fraud" and "conspiring to deprive citizens of the right to vote".

No, the whole point of that case is that the actions of the farmer in question could be regulated despite him not using an avenue of interstate commerce or interacting in any way with anyone out of state. That is the entire reason that it is a controversial decision.

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