This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
These sort of small separatist community attempts always seem (at least in the US) to draw in very unsavory personality types. The reason why these never really last starts to make sense when you factor in the psycho-social dynamics and the broader moral framework of this society when it comes to race. Is there a single popular separatist here in the US that doesn't have some noticeable level of disagreeableness or collection of anti-social traits? It just seems like maintaining such a society requires an overt level of resentment or even hostility toward other races, which of course doesn't pair well with pro-social behavior or stable community-building.
Some might argue that Jared Taylor walks this fine line pretty well, and he can seem quite cordial, but after reading some of his writings he comes off as having at least some distrust and disdain for those outside his racial group.
The idea isn't necessarily unworkable. It seems like they've pulled off some version of it in South Africa with that town called Orania, but in practice here in the US it continuously attracts people whose motivations tend to be more about who they don't want around coupled with personality types that have a high tendency toward social dominance and rigid in-group/out-group belief systems. I can somewhat sympathize with the concept, but I find communities whose entry requires a shared racial animosity somewhat repulsive.
I think you have to consider the type of person who would even consider doing something along these lines. If you’re willing to uproot your life, perhaps lose your career, abandon your community for any cause, you are absolutely not a casual person. Most savory people are rooted enough into their own community that they’d rather stay put, live quietly, and perhaps support the cause quietly, but not in a way that a hard core supporter would.
Ideological possession in any form tends to be a symptom of some sort of unresolved mental issues. It’s why even if I don’t agree with JBP politically (or at least not all the time), I absolutely agree that you should not be politically active until you’re in a mentally stable and healthy place. It becomes a person’s entire life because it’s not about the political issue, it’s about basing your identity on something that gives you the thrill of moral superiority, a cause to base your self worth on, and a virtuous reason to treat others badly. Such people will be unsavory, no matter how good the cause itself might be.
What if your entire society is ideologically possessed and you're trying to escape that to return to the norm?
If being disgusted with the moral order of things is automatically a mental illness, then even the most insane of moral orders must be conformed to and O'Brien was right to call Winston insane.
I find this a peculiar view to espouse in a country founded by dissidents and where there's a myriad of sucessful cults started as voluntary exile from the ways of the world.
Seems to me a natural and healthy part of the human psyche, actually.
I don’t mean just “disgusted by mainstream ideology”, I mean the kind of person who would uproot and move to an enclave specifically to forward an ideology. Escaping woke doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to move to a Nazi enclave. You could do equally as well moving to a rural town in a deep red state. Almost everyone in rural Mississippi is anti-woke, and a good number of them would be seen by city dwellers as racist. They are also fairly normal people who haven’t made being anti-woke a personality.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link