site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 28, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

A Price Force is not sufficiently like either the army or navy to count, so it isn't authorized. Yes, the government could lie and say that it is.

An Air Force is not sufficiently like either the army or navy to count, so it isn't authorized. Yes, the government could lie and say that it is.

That's pretty easy to just state ipse dixit. But there's something missing that I would call "reasoning". So far, when we've tested your reasoning, it has led to many more questions that you've consistently refused to answer.

once the Price Press exists

That's not how Constitutional grants of authority work. At all. Honestly, if this is your understanding of the Constitution, there's probably not much more value in me continuing this discussion.

An Air Force is not sufficiently like either the army or navy to count, so it isn't authorized. Yes, the government could lie and say that it is.

Pretty much nobody could sincerely claim that the Price Force counts. A huge number of people could sincerely say that the Air Force counts. The object level is important.

That's not how Constitutional grants of authority work.

Creating the Price Press is something the government can do using its ordinary powers. The free press clause isn't granting it authority at all.

The free press clause only comes into effect when the government tries to shut it down.

Pretty much nobody could sincerely claim that the Price Force counts.

Why not? Frankly, I just don't believe this whatsoever. This is nothing but an argument from personal incredulity. I guess this is what you're left with after your prior tests didn't work out. There's simply not a single shred of reasoning here.

Creating the Price Press is something the government can do using its ordinary powers.

No.

This is nothing but an argument from personal incredulity.

No, it's an argument "people don't think that". It is possible to observe people and draw conclusions about what they might think. "People don't think this" isn't an argument from personal incredulity.

No.

Yes. The government can spend money on lots and lots of things. Consider that the government actually has things like the Voice of America, subsidies to NPR, etc. The Price Press isn't all that different from that.

No, it's an argument "people don't think that".

Facts not in evidence. Especially facts from our hypothetical universe. You can't build a Constitutional test that is just your imagination of what some hypothetical people might think. I want to know what the Constitution says. I happen to think that something like textualism + original public meaning is approximately right. I think a school of Constitutional interpretation that is "I imagined in my head what I think some people I imagined might think in a hypothetical" is part of how we've gotten into this mess, because it's much easier to change people's imaginations than it is to change the Constitution.

The government can spend money

This is precisely the point of why I started this all the way back here. People have gotten this stupid idea in their brain that the spending clause authorizes literally any spending that the government chooses to do. This is just simply not true. There are, indeed, precedents to this effect already. My point is that people need to be real about this.

Moreover, this undercuts literally everything else you've argued. The Price Force must also be Constitutional, literally the opposite of the thing you've just been arguing, because "that's just the government spending money". You are literally now embodying the worst position that must be eliminated.

Consider that the government actually has things like the Voice of America, subsidies to NPR, etc.

Precisely. The point of this whole entire chain of comments, from the very beginning, was to get people back on track to realize that all sorts of stuff like that are not acceptable. As I wrote:

You start here [with the Air Force] specifically because it is one of the most absurd places, where technically-proper formalism has not been followed, but everyone [like you] gives in and shrugs their shoulders because they prefer power instead. Nobody will have any real argument against formalizing the Constitutionality of the Air Force, either, so it'll probably get done. And that sends a message, giving you political cover. "Now that everyone has agreed that it's important to strictly follow the Constitution and formally authorize any deviations from its very limited grant of power, I'm going to start shutting everything down that isn't properly authorized unless you can get sufficient supermajorities to save it."

You can't build a Constitutional test that is just your imagination of what some hypothetical people might think.

All laws are going to require some amount of common sense to apply. "What do (sincere) people think" is an inherent part of having laws.

People have gotten this stupid idea in their brain that the spending clause authorizes literally any spending that the government chooses to do.

If you think that the government shouldn't be funding media anyway, then ask the question on a more general level: Could the government claim that anything whatsoever counts as the press, and then apply freedom of the press to it? Could it do so for religion or speech, for that matter? If the government could not apply those to anything whatsoever, why wouldn't similar reasoning prevent them from considering the Price Force to be like an army or navy?

why wouldn't similar reasoning prevent them from considering the Price Force to be like an army or navy?

Because you're not letting it! I want to be able to have (good) reasoning that does this! (Not terrible reasoning like "I'm imagining hypothetical people, and my imagination is telling me that they think things.") But you're telling me that it's absolutely Constitutionally allowed, because of the spending clause.