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Culture War Roundup for the week of December 12, 2022

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I've found it impossible to find thorough, unbiased reading material about the Alex Jones/Sandy Hook trial. My take is "what he did shouldn't be illegal, but if it is, wouldn't removing the content from the internet and issuing a retraction be enough?" I'd appreciate some reading material if anyone has any.

but if it is, wouldn't removing the content from the internet and issuing a retraction be enough

At the very minimum he should also apologise for blatantly lying and inventing conspiracy theories about their dead children and refund costs caused by his lying.

And also some reasonable compensation (maybe about 10 000 000 $ per slandered person?).

Why $10M is reasonable? I mean, spreading vile lies is without doubt despicable, but $10M is more than life earnings of most Americans, and that not taking into account future value discounts. Basically, it's a sum that moves you to a category of "never has to work again unless you want to" and maybe the same for their family (depending on the size). I could understand if that was presented as "reasonable punishment" - this is a ruinous amount for the liar, and if you want to ensure nobody lies in such manner ever, it's reasonable to use a huge fine to ensure that. However, as a compensation, I do not understand why it is reasonable that a person who was a victim of a lie (admittedly, a very vile and disgusting one, but still one lie), should instantly become top 1% rich just because of it? I mean, if they suffered huge economic or physical losses because of the lie, I'd understand this, but did they suffer losses like that?

First, it was hardly "one lie."

Second, why does it matter whether someone becomes top 1% rich, if that is in fact fair compensation for what they suffered. There are plenty of people, after all, who would refuse any amount of money to be subjected to what some of those parents were subjected to. Either the monetary compensation was commensurate with their damages, or it was not. Whether it puts them in the top 1% or 10% or 0.001% is not relevant.

Finally, everyone seems to be forgetting that Jones presumably profited from telling those lies -- that is, after all, why he said them. At the very least, a tortfeasor who profits from his tort should be forced to disgorge those profits, which in this case might well exceed $10 million.

It does matter because compensation is meant to restore and repair the harm that was done to you. If you never were a multimillionaire, you can not honestly claim to restore harm done to you you should become one. When it's grievous bodily harm (say, you lose your hand, or get cancer) it may be different, because loss of life or quality of life is very hard to repair with money, and even to approach it one needs a lot of money. But here it's not the case, that's why I am questioning the reasonableness. And surely the percentile matters - otherwise how would you know if $10M is a lot or not? Money is a social thing, so to know how much money is $10M you need to look at the society. Maybe in some society even $1000 would be a huge sum of money, but in ours it's not a lot. To have this measure, we need to use percentiles.

Either the monetary compensation was commensurate with their damages, or it was not.

That's my point - I don't see how $10M is commensurate.

There are plenty of people, after all, who would refuse any amount of money to be subjected to what some of those parents were subjected to

That's not a good argument, since that implies infinite compensation for anything that I would never agree to do voluntarily. Let's say I hate you very much, and would never agree to give you my car for a ride, not even for a billion of dollars, I am very stubborn this way. You break into my house one day and take my car for a ride. No harm done to the house or the car, but I feel very bad about it. Does it entitle me to a compensation over a billion dollars? I don't think most people would agree to that as a reasonable approach.

At the very least, a tortfeasor who profits from his tort should be forced to disgorge those profits, which in this case might well exceed $10 million.

That's different from a compensation. Compensation is measured against damages, not profits. If you said the court should take all Jones' profits gained from his lies (let's imagine it is possible to figure it out) and distribute it equally between the victims - that would be a different thing, but that's not what you said.

There are a couple of things wrong with this.

First, suppose there are two victims, each of whom was subjected to exactly the same harassment. Victim A is a multimillionaire, and Victim B is unemployed. You seem to the saying that a $10 million emotional distress verdict for Victim A would be perfectly fine, but that a $10 million emotional distress verdict for Victim B would be be unreasonable. But, if, as you say, "compensation is meant to restore and repair the harm that was done to you," that makes no sense.

Second, let's suppose that I am a regular guy, and my family is harassed. As a result, my wife and five kids each attempt suicide. They all live, but are vegetables, and require around the clock care for the rest of their life expectancy, which, for my kids, is probably 80 years each. So, the jury awards me a verdict of about $50 million ($300/day for 80 years for each kid and 40 years for my wife). Would you say that I have been unjustly rewarded? I doubt it, because I have merely been made whole. Therefore, IF the verdict reflects the damages that the plaintiff has suffered, then it is irrelevant where the sum places him on the income distribution.

And, it seems to me that you agree with that; as you say, "When it's grievous bodily harm (say, you lose your hand, or get cancer) it may be different, because loss of life or quality of life is very hard to repair with money,." Well, yes, and so, too, is emotional distress from extreme harassment. So, it seems to me that your real objection is not that the verdict rendered them rich, but that the verdict did not accurately reflect the damages incurred. Perhaps you think that emotional damages are inherently less harmful than other damages, which is fine: Many people agree with that, and they might be right. But that is very different than your claim that the verdict is invalid because it results in the plaintiff becoming rich.

Similarly, when you say, " If you said the court should take all Jones' profits gained from his lies (let's imagine it is possible to figure it out) and distribute it equally between the victims - that would be a different thing," you are again implying that if that rendered the plaintiffs filthy rich, that would be ok. So, again, you seem to recognize that the outcome for the plaintiffs is not actually a relevant consideration, if the verdict is otherwise just (whether the justice flows from the fact that it accurately compensates the plaintiffs for the damages they suffered, or whether justice flows from delivering just deserts to the defendant).