site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 19, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I suspect that a lot of Democrats, especially those amongst the upper leadership, are succumbing to the same sort of mindset that @the_nybbler does in this thread here They believe in their heart of hearts that credibility is imposed by the elite, and that if they are able to successfully indict and convict Trump that his supporters will be forced to shut up and back down. The possibility that Trump's supporters might reject the legitimacy of the charges is dismissed out of hand because that would imply that their model of authority and credibility as things that are imposed by the elite rather than emergent properties is incorrect. And if a fundamental tenet of liberalism can be negated that easily what does that say about the rest of the the democratic party platform?

They're right that credibility is imposed by the elite; all the right-thinking people already believe Trump is guilty, and they hold power and don't care what the "deplorables" believe because after all, what can the "deplorables" do about it even if they do "reject the legitimacy of the charges"? But the right's threshold for violence is not impossibly high, as January 6 proved (for a small, not too bright, segment of hotheads), and aside from just having Trump shot out of hand, I don't see much more likely to trigger it than a political prosecution.

(I also think if the right does try anything, they'll be crushed, but that leaves the republic still broken)

How can "the republic be broken" if credibility is imposed by the elite?

Either credibility is an emergent property or it is not.