site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   15609 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 19, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Top Bottom New Old Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Why is "the Trans Question is an infohazard that is bound to damage the community in one or another if its discussion is allowed" not a sufficient justification for having a policy like that? If I were in charge of running a space like that, I'd impose the same rule, just for that reason.

The more interesting question, to me, is once again the exclusive focus on women. From what I've seen of various statistics, the number of FtM transitions and the number of MtF transitions is basically on the same order of magnitude everywhere; yet, if I looked at the internet, I would get the impression that "trans" is a category completely dominated by MtF. Do similar rules to the above exist in gay subreddits? Do gay subreddits need rules like that? The only context in which I've seen anyone complain about FtM transitions were claims of the type "our underage daughters will be brainwashed into mutilating themselves by social contagion", so, once again, concern for women. It seems that people on almost all sides of this debate are fundamentally in agreement that women are the only category that matters ethically and aesthetically.

It seems that people on almost all sides of this debate are fundamentally in agreement that women are the only category that matters ethically and aesthetically.

Men have agency with no inherent value and women have inherent value with no agency as the default assumption in society is not that spicy of a take. The 'F' on a driver's license entitles you to aid, scholarships, segregated spaces, special prizes, uneconomical programs to support you, general praise for even the most commonplace achievement, a benefit of the doubt, shorter criminal sentencing and much more; The 'M' on your driver's license entitles you to being forced to die in some god forsaken shithole and a lifetime of being held in suspicious or contempt. This is like asking why there is so much less security preventing Americans from going into Mexico than Mexicans going into America. And yes, gay guys are much much better at telling people they don't want to sleep with to pound sand, "No rice" is still incredibly common on gay male dating profiles.

I repeat myself, but generally, among the middle and upper classes in the West, women are the privileged group. They have access to provision, protection, and social concessions that men do not have access to and they are exempt from male duties. A man wanting to switch social categories is in dereliction of those duties and is seen as someone claiming privileges they are not entitled to. The reaction to MtF AND to FtM becomes quite understandable in that light. Nobody cares if a woman wants to live on hard mode.

Many worries about MtF are about males getting access to females spaces and overpowering them due to psychical power greater than woman have (sports have the least emotionally charged and the most objective case of that).

This does not apply to FtM.

Also how many FtM and MtF are there?

Also how many FtM and MtF are there?

FtMs outnumber MtFs 3:1. The mainstream doesn't talk about it because it raises too many uncomfortable questions and possibilities.

How many of those who pursue medical changes?

They don't seem to be that keen on sharing that data.

It seems that people on almost all sides of this debate are fundamentally in agreement that women are the only category that matters ethically and aesthetically.

The world starts making a lot more sense when you just accept traditional gender roles, and see nearly everyone denying them as engaging in an elaborate social ritual.

And it's not that men don't matter ethically, but there's the protectors, and the protected. What else do you expect to see in that case?

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats