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No, only two justices voted that the nativity scene violated the Establishment Clause while the menorah did not. Three judges voted that both violated the Establishment Clause and four voted that neither did.
The argument was not so much that a menorah per se is a secular symbol, but rather only that that particular menorah was, in large part because it was part of a larger display which included a Christmas tree and a celebration of liberty, all of whuch they deemed secular.
The Court actually remanded the case to determine whether the menorah violated the Establishment Clause for reasons not addressed in the appeal.
The Court okayed the display of a creche in 1984 in Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668. The difference in Allegheny, in the view of the five justices who voted that the creche was NG, was that "Here, unlike in Lynch, nothing in the context of the display detracts from the creche's religious message. The Lynch display composed a series of figures and objects, each group of which had its own focal point. Santa's house and his reindeer were objects of attention separate from the creche, and had their specific visual story to tell. Similarly, whatever a "talking" wishing well may be, it obviously was a center of attention separate from the creche. Here, in contrast, the creche stands alone: it is the single element of the display on the Grand Staircase." Note that this analysis is the same as that applied to the menorah.
The creche also included the phrase, "Glory to God in the Highest!"
And here is how Justice Gorsuch summarized the case law, just last May: "May a State or local government display a Christmas nativity scene? Some courts said yes, others no. How about a menorah? Again, the answers ran both ways."
So, your example doesn’t work.
Why are you saying "No" when you are just restating the verdict as I've described?
Obviously that is how judicial precedent works. But that particular menorah was not a secular symbol, that is an absurd claim. It was a sacred Jewish symbol, including that particular menorah.
Where exactly are the elements distracting the menorah outside the White House or the world's largest menorah in Central Park? Menorah lighting is clearly privileged well beyond the display of the Nativity scene, both in case law and in just using your eyes to see which of the two towers over the White House and Central Park. Gorsuch may be hinting that this will be revisited, which would be a good win for Christians and interesting Culture War moment. But the status quo obviously privileges the menorah above the Nativity.
I know I'm wasting my time, but:
Please read more carefully.
What I said has nothing to do with "how judicial precedent works"
A creche is far more of a sacred religious symbol than is a menorah, given how what a trivial part of Judaism Hannukah is, and how central Xmas is to Christianity. Yet, as Justice Gorsuch notes, sometimes creches are OK, and sometimes not. It depends on the particular creche, same as re menorahs.
Both appear to be privately funded. When government has a policy of opening public spaces to privately funded displays, it cannot exclude religious displays
Part of your confusion is that you seem to be under the misapprehension that simply displaying a religious symbol is an Establishment Clause violation, but the Courts has never so held. Rather, under the Lemon test, used in the cases you complain about, the display is OK if 1) it has a secular purpose; 2) it has a principal or primary effect that does not advance or inhibit religion; and 3) it does not foster an excessive government entanglement with religion. Re #1, that doesn't mean that the law's purpose must be unrelated to religion. Corporation of Presiding Bishop v. Amos, 483 U.S. 327 (1987). Most importantly, it is the purpose of the particular decision to exhibit the creche, not the nature of creches in general, which is the ultimate question.
Note that the Lemon test has been criticized for years, and most commentators (and Justice Kagan) considers it to have been effectively overruled this year in Kennedy v. Bremerton School District. But that widely misunderstood case is a topic for another day.
This is just a totally absurd statement. They are both sacred religious symbols. A menorah is not a secular symbol. Saying "one is more sacred than the other" is just trying to rationalize privileging one religious symbol over the other. Today I saw this Fox News article by Dennis Prager: Hanukkah made western civilization possible:
I also stated, to the annoyance of some here, that the menorah is a symbol of Jewish victory. And Prager affirms that interpretation verbatim. It is obviously a sacred religious symbol. The Talmud says:
So the Talmud mandates the display of the menorah to "publicize the miracle." That is a sacred religious symbol.
The menorah lighting at the White House and Central Park does not have a secular purpose. It has a deeply religious and symbolically important purpose. Jews themselves understand this. I know you are going to say it has a secular purpose, because you want to privilege Jewish sacred symbols over Christian symbols. But it doesn't make that position any more rational than it is.
As is always the case when people criticize legal decisions, I would suggest that when smart people with access to all the facts who have thought at great length about the issues involved, and who have had their arguments and conclusions scrutinized by other smart people with access to all the facts who have thought at great length about the issues involved, reach a conclusion, you might be a tad less sure of yourself when you think they are obviously wrong.
I would also suggest that the fact that you use Prager's claim re the historical significance of the battle that Hannukah celebrates as evidence of the religious significance of the holiday, you aren't thinking very rigorous about the claim you are making. Ditto if you think that my observation that "a creche is far more of a sacred religious symbol than is a menorah" is a claim that a menorah is not a sacred religious symbol at all. Obviously, both a creche and a menorah have [edit: I meant "can have" -- see my initial post re the Court talking about the particular menorah in question, not menorahs in general] both secular and religious meaning, as courts have repeatedly recognized.
Finally, the claim that menorahs in public places have no secular purpose is inane; they have the obvious purpose of reinforcing the idea that people of all faiths are members of the polity, which is clear to anyone who is familiar with the history of such displays, religious and otherwise.
Anyhow, as I said, I know I'm wasting my time.
What I said was this:
That's the standard. And please don't embarrass yourself by saying "how do we know that Hanukkah is trivial?" -- businesses don't close in Israel for Hanukkah, the National Library stays open, and it is not mentioned in the Bible.
Those are, of course, two different questions. As noted above several times, a particular creche is often legally permitted, despite a creche, in general, being quite high on the sacredness scale.
As for determining the scale, the mere fact that differences cannot be measured precisely does not mean that they do not exist. One can say that Ronald Reagan was a greater President than Millard Fillmore without having to assign points. That being said, as noted, one element, but not the only element, is the nature of the holiday in question. A symbol associated with a holiday which is central to the religion in question (eg, Passover) is obviously going to carry more sacredness than a symbol associated with a holiday that is more peripheral (eg, Hanukkah, Purim). And, one way to assess the centrality of the holiday is, as noted, how they are treated by adherents: Are stores closed? Are govt services closed? What do adherents do on the holiday: Do they skip work and school, if schools are open (Passover) or do they go to work/school (Hannukah). Do those who rarely attend religious service go to religious services on that day (Passover) or do they not do so (Hanukkah)? Etc, etc. I am sure that you can think of other ways to operationalize that particular variable. And, of course, since all of the holidays in question have both secular and religious components, the particular symbol is important. Some are more religious than secular (a creche); others are more secular than religious (a Christmas tree).
I would also add that you, and the OP, seem to assume that a display of a menorah is a celebration of Judaism, rather than a celebration of the Hanukkah holiday, and that the display of a creche is a celebration of Christianity, rather than a celebration of the Christmas holiday. Neither of those assumption is necessarily true; they might be true sometimes, but they are not **necessarily **true. And that is why, as I have said many times, courts, when determining whether any particular display violates the First Amendment, be that a creche or a menorah or whatever, look at the particular context surrounding the particular display, in order to determine whether they constitute an endorsement of religion, which is the legal standard (or was, when the cases OP is complaining about were decided).
Finally, where is your standard? If my organization wants to rent a public park display areas to put up the world's largest Easter Bunny, is that OK? What about the world's largest Christmas tree? What about the world's biggest sign saying, "Jesus says, "on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"? What about "Accept Jesus or Go to Hell?" Now, maybe you want to say that all symbols with any religious content should be banned from public spaces. Or that none should. Great! But that is not current law, and since the issue at hand is the legitimacy of OP's claim that current law favors Jewish people over Christians, that doesn't address the issue.
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