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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   2345 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for August 29, 2025

Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.

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In the current cultural moment, progressivism is mostly associated with shoddy, preachy art. I could name names, but I think everyone has at least one example that comes to mind. So: is there an example, today, of good progressive art? I’d say yes, and point to Toby Fox’s DELTARUNE.

DELTARUNE is a pseudo-sequel to the extraordinary success of Undertale, with most of the same characters but almost none of the same plot points. Both games are fairly linear 2D turn-based RPGs with some puzzle and real-time elements.

First, in what way is it progressive?

  • The game is absolutely saturated in gender non-conformance. The fighter of the party is a tough girl. The healer is a sensitive boy in a dress. The main character is deliberately androgynous, and is referred to as “they.” The main romance that features is lesbian.
  • Ditto pluralism. Most of the characters are “monsters,” which are generally anthropomorphized but come in all varieties. The main character is the one human. They all live happily together.
  • To expand on this, the “enemies” in the game are not really enemies. Persuade them a little, and they will lay down arms. Mistake theory predominates.

So, what makes the game good?

  • On the aesthetic front, the obvious standout is the music. Toby Fox is a competent and creative composer with a real flair for making catchy tunes.
  • Equally, the game oozes creative vision and whimsy. It’s full of interesting ideas - like a computer-themed level replete with viruses, ads, and a “Tasque Manager” - which it executes on splendidly.
  • In that vein, Toby Fox also is superb at tying everything in the game together like an auteur. The sound matches the gameplay matches the story matches the graphics. It is very hard to find anything seriously out of place. (I do not call him an auteur simply because that implies that all ideas for the game source from him, when there are very obviously sections that match someone else’s vision. What he does is seamlessly mesh those sections into the overall experience.)
  • The gameplay is also quite expansive. It includes elements of bullet hells, rhythm games, etc, all as they make sense. The game is never shy to add something new if it might be fresh or interesting. This especially livens up the combat.

But what I think makes this a good PROGRESSIVE game is something a little different:

  • The game is not slavishly progressive. It is set in a small town, where everyone knows one another and goes to church on Sundays. This is portrayed as a little stifling but also kind of sweet. There are plenty of straight and gender-conforming characters (though it’s pretty low on typical machismo). It does not follow line item requirements on any topics du jour, and indeed there is a section lampooning a polyamorous “throuple” (Toby’s words, not mine) run by a deeply obnoxious busybody pushing around two hapless and unhappy orbiters.
  • Real-world politics are totally absent. There is no sexism. There is no analogue to any real racial group. There are rich and poor people, and differences between them, but there’s no hatred for one or the other.
  • The characters themselves are compelling. I’m not going to go so far as to say they’re particularly deep, but Toby is great at showing rather than telling, and overall they ring true. Small example: at the start of the game, you wake up in a room with two beds. One has a shelf full of trophies and awards and all kinds of cool games, music discs, and so on. The one you wake up in is barren and gray. It very quickly becomes apparent that your older brother is off at college. This paints a picture that does not need extensive textual elaboration. You get a sense of who your character is from the world you inhabit and how people talk to you. This pattern is repeated over, and over, and over, and it’s quite refreshing.

These points are where most progressive art falters. It slavishly follows a set of predefined norms, instead of the artist’s opinions; it drowns itself in politics and analogy; its characters exist purely to push one or another point, which must be driven home explicitly, and wind up flat because of it. This creates something pretty drab and uninteresting, no matter the political stance which generates it.

I’ll leave off there. I don’t want to point too much attention to the line-items of progressive ideology in the game, which are better suited to the CW thread, but draw out how art is able to include ideology without being consumed by it, which I consider fun enough for Friday.

Opinions on DELTARUNE or other ideological but non-terrible art welcome.

These points are where most progressive art falters. It slavishly follows a set of predefined norms, instead of the artist’s opinions; it drowns itself in politics and analogy; its characters exist purely to push one or another point, which must be driven home explicitly, and wind up flat because of it.

This is where my language differs; this is 'art that happens to show a progressive worldview' and not 'progressive art', which I believe is by definition driven by hatred for all non-progressive worldviews. Same thing with Christian art, for that matter, for exactly the same reasons- if you ever wondered what the difference between a Chick tract and Lord of the Rings is, it's this.

Maybe you could call it a Traditionalist game because a certain negative aspect of Ralsei 'being a girly/GNC boy' is not only revealed, but actively punished? I dunno.

Anyway, I posit that a work in which 'mistake theory predominates' can't really be specifically labelled to ideology-specific. "Correct" is not a political identity- though I get that they all pretend to have a monopoly on it.

Oh yeah, and depending on your choices you can to a degree, rape one of the implied-to-be-teenage female characters

which is rank blasphemy against all of the Progressive gods (and is to my knowledge the only major post-release artwork change), and you're actually encouraged by the game to do this.

This is something that should have generated absurd amounts of butthurt and problematization, but it has not; I suspect the offended are mostly told "fuck off, it's a good game" (partially because of Undertale and how well its narrative also happens to include 'yes, you can kill basically everyone' while not being absurd grimdark), and because everyone is more interested with where the so-far-incomplete story is going to go.

Most of the points you've made can be beat-for-beat substituted for Omori, as well, and it's actually kind of interesting to see the parallels between them (to the point that Toby Fox did to a point co-ordinate with Omocat to make sure they weren't making the exact same game).

Heck, both of those games have the 'seemingly-indifferent protagonist', 'girly boy who loves you', and 'tomboy bully/bruiser who the protagonist probably prefers romantically' archetypes; and the relationship the game revolves around is same-sex[1]. Omocat is, at least publicly, a bit more progressive (though perhaps that comes with the territory; Toby Fox is an Easterner and makes his money on the game itself, whereas Omocat is from California and the game was an incidental and more funded by merchandise). Also, Omocat is a woman and Toby Fox is a man.

And yeah, I think a lot of that comes through in the writing and gameplay; Omori's RPG system has emotion control as its primary mechanic where Deltarune's mechanics are kind of all over the place (and are more often played with), and Omori's more interested in being a good story where Deltarune focuses far more on its self-awareness as a game. Not that Omori doesn't do that at times (specifically at the end), but 'changing the mechanics in a place you don't expect it to be done' is something traditional media doesn't get has an emotional impact.

[1] This is a lot more in your face in Deltarune where it's more subtle in Omori. Something something 4 Loves, and Omocat's writing is a lot more intentionally shipping-bait-y than anything in Deltarune, but Omori's plot revolves around loving Sunny loving Basil far more than any other character in the game. That may fit into one's description of 'romantic', or it may not; I don't think it matters.

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