site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

14
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Well yeah, but counting those societies as western is dumb- they don’t have any more in common with later Christian and post Christian societies than they do with middle eastern societies.

A category that includes 1950s America and 4th century Rome is already very broad. However, "Western" is a category referring to a set of intellectual, linguistic, and other cultural traditions, typically taken to descend from the cultures of Ancient Greece, Rome, and the Hebrews (up to the 1st century). It's not defined in terms of degree of similarity. A South Pacific Island that had miraculously and independently become Christian, democratic, individualistic, and had a play in in Iambic Pentameter about an existentially tormented prince would still not be "Western", because despite its similarities it would not be part of the same tradition.

Saying that ancient Greeks and Romans weren't Western is a bizarre understanding of "Western". We could redefine words to mean the opposite of their common definition. But then communication would be very difficult and full of misunderstanding.

I took a year long Western Civ class in high school. It was almost all ancient Greece and Roman.

There's heterodox opinions and then there's just failure to use terms in a sensible manner.

Well yes, the category ‘western’ includes ancient Athens as well as 21st century America- that’s why the category is dumb. Not completely absent of meaning, but not defining something that needs to be defined.

To be fair, hydroacetylene's contention is that "Western" is a bad category and that we should replace most of its uses with "Christian".