This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I was talking with some friends and family and they mentioned that full legalization of drugs would stop cartels from existing. Being the a bit contrarian, I am looking for other opinions than those in my personal circle.
What would happen if we legalized every drug out there? The argument is that anyone who would take such drugs, is already taking it despite it being illegal, and that there's nothing so addictive that if you try it once you're hooked for life/ruined your life. So their argument is: anyone who would be addicted already is, and the only effect of keeping the drugs illegal is that criminals are in charge of selling and producing them instead of capitalists/entrepreneurs who are above the law, and that there will be less stuff that is spiked/laced because of regulations. I'm not sure if it is true that all drugs are "safe" to try just once, what if there are drugs that are instantly addictive and ruin your life for having tried them once? Are there?
Also, what if legalizing (due to those imposed regulations) increases the price. Essentially, what if requiring drug producers to not lace their products, etc. makes it prohibitively expensive for the main population that is seeking out these drugs, meaning there will once again be a black market for them. The only benefit I can see to legalizing is that there might be some light/medium psychedelic drugs with mental health or spiritual benefits that middle-class/wealthy people will be able to access without going against the law, but I don't see how legalizing would get rid of cartels specifically? Can someone steelman the anti-legalization stance to me better than I've been trying to do?
I suppose we could also go full libertarian and have no regulations and full legalization. Perhaps that would stop cartels then, because companies can produce shit-quality drugs legally without needing to be criminals and kill people for it? (And perhaps with supply/demand, companies (which have access to better human capital than gangs) will learn to get more efficient with their production so they end up producing good quality drugs cheaply?).
My beliefs are that drugs are just a negative for society, so if we could get rid of them that's just better. If we can't get rid of them, we should minimize the number of people using them. And that legalizing "feels" like it will produce a world with a lot more drug users and that's a bad thing. Is this belief is wrong? I can't really debate people based off the above "vibes"-based reasoning but it feels wrong to legalize something like hard drugs, unless I've been lied to about how dangerous they are?
The most harmful drugs are tobacco and alcohol. Tobacco and alcohol are not particularly potent, they are simply very widely consumed.
If drugs are legalized and the effects are bad, it will be difficult to recriminalize them again since there will be lobby groups and tax revenue at risk.
Drugs are usually much more potent than alcohol and tobacco, THC content in marijuana has been rising massively over time. New ones are discovered all the time - Fentanyl for instance which might be the optimal drug in cost-effective highs... but also very dangerous.
Drugs also have a risk of big systematic problems, like how Russia got extremely drunk on vodka or how the Qing empire got extremely addicted on opium. If we're entering an era of mass unemployment due to AI do we really want widely accessible drugs?
Addiction isn't just for poor losers, it can be for anyone who makes a bad decision, has the wrong friends, is just overburdened by circumstances and needs something to take the edge off and then lacks the willpower to keep it under control.
My more controversial conclusion: I think that the drug dealers should be systematically rooted out and destroyed. Find a drug dealer (if drug addicts can do this, so can police with drones, cameras, wiretapping, troops). Point a gun at him until he tells you where he got his drugs from. Go to them, point guns at them... repeat until you've gotten all the drug dealers and all domestic suppliers/importers. If they refuse to tell you, blow their heads off. If they're turning people into fentanyl zombies, they should be treated like necromancers in an RPG, inherent enemies of society. There should be a gradation of responses, the dumbass blonde girl dealing coke to upper middle class users isn't turning people into fentanyl zombies and shouldn't have her head blown off but if she doesn't reveal her supplier then keep ramping up punishment until she does. You could have creative responses like tattooing 'drug dealer' on her forehead, caning... The legal system we have isn't well-adapted to deal with large criminal gangs with large revenues and strong coercive capabilities. These are small, borderless state actors that deserve a more militarized response.
Sticking criminals in prison is not a sufficient deterrent to the gangsters 'if you snitch, we will kill you and make an example of your mutilated corpse'. Often they just end up running their gangs from prison, executing drug deals from prison, intimidating other gangs from prison. If you go to prison, you can't be so easily killed by a rival gang and you can brutalize/rape members of rival gangs who get imprisoned in prisons you control! You can exchange tricks with other career criminals and abuse prisoners who aren't career criminals or part of a gang.
None of this is working properly, it's a legalist fantasy, just going through the motions. It's a parallel to the 'let out the retarded, violent criminal after his 14th crime (he's too retarded to be held responsible) wait until after he murders some random person to crack down on him' equilibrium. No 15th chances. If he's clearly a bad guy, blow him away. Killing bad guys is actively good, not a last resort. The present bad equilibrium needs to be smashed with a major effort, then we can all enjoy a superior equilibrium.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link