This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Among other things, but not only that. My observation is that (some) conservatives are much more likely to try and 'gatekeep' Americanness and call things they don't like unamerican (progressives occasionally try, but their heart never seems to be in it); they often frame opposition to wokeness as 'reclaiming' or 'taking back' the country. In general, they seem much more inclined to pushing forward a prescriptive vision of American culture than other factions in American politics.
Some of this I will freely admit is a vibes-based assessment that a lot of conservatives were really disoriented and angered by being on the other side of the enforcer-transgressor dichotomy. By contrast, progressives were also disoriented by the flip, but had previously been quite comfortable in the transgressor role and often seem to prefer it.
A thought on this: the definition of 'conservative' is being on the enforcer side (the act of enforcement is tautologically conservative), and then you have the reformers and reactionaries on the other side.
Progressives have been under the pretense that they were in the transgressor role (and to a degree inherit a movement that is axiomatically transgressive, which is why they, and traditionalist-leaning reactionaries, erroneously call them 'liberals'), but transgression and entrenchment are indistinguishable to any faction that depends on entrenchment.
Progressives have had them beat on that front since at least before the Civil War. (Why else do you think the faction opposed to them still uses the stars and bars?)
It is useful to be able to point out that even classical liberals will act like conservatives once they manage to get into power. "Maximally correct" is not a viable political identity because as soon as the conditions are right to enable rent-seeking on what was a mostly correct answer, that is what gets entrenched, and it remains that way until enough social activation energy accumulates such that it is pushed back by a new truth. Which then entrenches, and like the tides, the cycle repeats.
More options
Context Copy link
Having been made unwelcome or outright banned from virtually every hobby space I enjoyed since I was a wee child in the 80s by pure dint of being conservative, this is rich. Also requires ignoring Biden's rage speech where he repeatedly described "MAGA" as the greatest threat to America. IMHO describing the opposition party as a threat the nation ranks pretty high above merely describing their policies as unamerican.
Yes, but the Left is universalist. It wishes to push forward a prescriptive vision of Being A Decent Person™ which should apply globally. @Skibboleth was making the point that this is different from the Conservative focus on defining Americanness.
I would more or less agree with this, though part of my thesis is also that progressives are, if not happy, then at least comfortable with the idea of being outsiders (and indeed seemed to struggle with the idea that they had real power even when they were getting people fired), whereas conservatives viscerally hated it.
Conservatives were never really powerless. Even at the height of progressive influence, they still ran half the country, had their own parallel media institutions, etc... (It must be noted that the people most affected by progressive cancel culture were other progressives). But they were in a situation where mainstream cultural institutions gave virtually no deference to their sensibilities (a major change) and where expressing conservative opinions on sex/sexuality, gender, or race risked real social disapproval (not just having a blue-haired college student impotently yell at you). Illustratively, in a very short time frame you went from risking censure for being publicly gay to risking censure for being publicly anti-gay.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link