This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I love Pathfinder but hate character creation. There's already a min-max template out there somewhere, and my gaming group has 1-2 people who have them already memorized. There's no point in bringing an suboptimal build to the table.
The result is I get this ugly mix of spending a couple hours stumbling through building something, doing an 80% good job because I'm not totally stupid but also we've never kept a campaign going past level 5 and the the gaps between each one are long enough that I forget some of the nuances.
Then we show up for our first session and we spend 2 hours adjusting it to one of the templates for the class anyway. Ugh.
Playing is a blast, but I hate the grind of using sub-optimal tools for creation beforehand.
I would say there's no point in min-maxing, and you should stop doing that. Doing that sucks the fun out of any game (not just Pathfinder), so of course you don't have fun with character creation. You can still have just as much fun, if not more fun, with a suboptimal character you built with a fun idea in mind.
I understand what you're saying here - I think it depends on the playgroup.
3 of the dudes in our group can GM reliably. 2 of them are very take-no-prisoners, to the point where we need one to be the player's advocate when the other is GM. You can't really survive in those games if you're doing C-level builds, and if you're B-level you'll spend a lot of time in combat taking cover and not doing much (to say nothing of having the non-combat skills to move things forward).
In a sense my attitude is a reflection of general problems with the group's ability to stick around with long campaigns. A mediocre build can be rectified over many levels and the "fun" element can be fleshed out. They're in a weird space where they get bored once they hit certain levels and so even if they do make the commitment for a long campaign they try to cut it off for something new! Unbelievably cool universes have been left on the table after just 10-15 sessions.
It's still an absolute blast, but it's made the character creation part of the equation the least fun.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link