This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think we've seen a few brakes taken off, a few restraints both parties exercised (imperfectly) in the past, but the precedent of acceleration means everyone is going to have less and less restraint now. So when the Democrats accelerate, Republicans will be outraged, and Democrats will say "But Trump."
I'll skip over the 'what's actually happening and who's done what' debate, since I don't think we'll make any progress if you're already decided on a script, but:
What, precisely, is the proposed mechanism, here? Over on Earth Beta, do you think the Butler County assassin would have held back because his tyrant hadn't made a poop joke while wanting to deport millions of thousands of illegal immigrants? Would a state judge not have ordered already-cast primary ballots to be left uncounted, because not!Trump only 'started a riot' and didn't make fun of a disabled journalist? Is their goatee'd Charlie Kirk still breathing, because even if he still wanted to shove trans people back into boxes, at least he didn't punk on a particularly goofy student before the media reporting mangled his quotes to make him into a turboracist?
There's serious policy disagreements, approximately zero people in power in politics are interested in actually persuading or compromising on those policy disagreements, and even the virtues of an opposing side are being twisted into vices... and the poop joke is what people are going to remember? I'd like a world where professionalism was important, again. But leaving aside the many ways I could argue we've not been in that world for a long, long time, I just don't think the pragmatic argument holds water, or has held water for much of our adult lifespans.
I don't know what fucking script you think I'm following, but no, there is no mechanism. No, I do not think Trump refraining from literal shitposting would make things better. You're right, the brakes are off and it's too late. Congratulations, you win. I am not arguing for pragmatism. I am describing what I see. I do not expect "Who started it and who was worse?" to be a relevant question in the future.
I dunno what you're following, but you literally gave a list of what analysis and response you expected here, which me very uninterested in discussing the actual facts on the ground.
That's a much more straightforward answer to the question:
And was I wrong? No, I was not.
Hm.
Do you think that the post I wrote above is just slapping into that category? If so, do you understand why I'd be uninterested in trying to go into deeper discourse, or expect it to be unproductive?
Do you think I was interested in going into "deeper discourse"? I don't care who you think is the wrongest wrong in wronglandia. It doesn't matter. Was I unclear?
Do you think my posts above are about -- or even discussing! -- who was the wrongest wrong in wronglandia? Or did you just decide that's what everyone responding to you could only possibly be discussing?
Because I'll point out, to be extremely explicit, that I did not actually say that Republicans hadn't done anything bad, that there's no remotely charitable read of "approximately zero people in power in politics are interested in actually persuading or compromising on those policy disagreements, and even the virtues of an opposing side are being twisted into vices" that would exclude Republicans. You might even notice that I pointed out, to be extremely explicit, some things that Democratics were peeved about, and some of them could at least be described as reasonable differences of opinion.
I think there's a deeper discussion, on that matter, and if you don't care, I'm not going to waste my time or yours any further.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Thomas Mathew Crooks’ computer had search results for both Trump and Biden campaign stops, presumably to see which would occur nearer to Crooks, and Trump was the unlucky recipient of that horrid game of chance (and, even more so, the now-deceased Corey Comperatore).
I’m guessing on Earth Beta, Crooks is still a nihilistic malcontent who takes a shot at whichever candidate forces him to spend the least amount of time in the car so he can make national news and have his posthumous 15-minutes of fame.
Unless they don’t have social media and irony poisoning on Earth Beta, then Crooks eventually dies alone in anonymity.
That's a massive degree of confidence on a tiny amount of evidence.
As opposed to what other evidence, including any Crooks had expressed about politics? With what evidence we have, depressed loser who came to prefer infamy to life seems as probable as any hypothesis.
So, to get this straight, your position is that shooting Trump and having Biden in his browser history are roughly equivalent levels of evidence as to whom he wanted dead?
My hypothesis is that a guy, for whom there has yet to be produced a single piece of evidence that he expressed an opinion on either Trump or Biden in any direction (before or after the shooting, via manifesto or the like) who didn’t just search for Biden, but specifically both Biden and Trump campaign stops in relation to their distance from his residence, picked Trump as his target for assassination, because Trump’s campaign stop in PA was indeed the closest to his residence made by either candidate.
Yes.
I strongly suspect if Biden had made an announced, scheduled public appearance closer to Bethel Park, PA than Trump did, that Biden would have been the target.
You seem to be very invested in your contrarian take, but I'll try to spell this out one more time. Shooting Trump is strong evidence of his opinion on Trump. You don't get to exclude the one huge and highly unusual piece of evidence that we all have and then say the pithy culture-warrior line "there has yet to be produced a single piece of evidence...".
The default boring position is that he hated Trump for political reasons, because Trump is a divisive political figure and he shot Trump.
Now, it's possible the default boring position is wrong, but you need strong evidence if you want to convince non-ideologues like us of this. Searching for Biden campaign stops he could attend does not even distinguish him from fans of Biden. I would struggle to call it "evidence" of anything.
I think it’s quite the opposite, and in terms of non-ideologues, physician heal thyself.
Crooks wasn’t political. He didn’t post about politics. No one who knew him described him as political.
Tyler Robinson? Sophie/Nicholas Roske? Joshua Jain? Luigi Magione? Etc. Etc. Etc. — We have messages on shell casings, manifestos, social media posts, text messages, and interviews with acquaintances that all confirm motive, or even at a minimum a basic political leaning in the opposite direction of their target. Where is anything like that for Crooks?
You’re asserting he was looking up the distance of Trump appearances to his house for a different reason than doing the same for Biden — there’s nothing pro or anti Trump or Biden from Crooks that’s been credibly reported or discovered that he voiced prior to setting out to assassinate his target. Where’s anything as small as following a campaign account?
On the contrary, absent any of the usual evidence we have accompanying political violence, the response to Crooks reminds me of the immediate response to Jared Lee Loughner — that he shot Gabby Giffords was treated as evidence enough, alone, that his motivations were political. The press made the assertion, blamed a Sarah Palin mailer, tried to find anything that could link him to the right, broadly, and came up blank.
Give me the bare minimum that the press couldn’t on Loughner. As small as one high school classmate of Crooks’ that said he watched Hasan Piker Twitch streams. Anything.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link