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The "awkwardness" comes from the heavy cloud of social and legal consequences men face for making just one wrong move on a date. The longhouse taught us that we need explicit verbal consent at every step of foreplay.
Men overwhelmingly make the first sexual move (and then make 3-5 moves for every 1 his female partner makes). This roughly 4:1 sexual dance is preferred by the overwhelming majority of men and women. Add to this the lingering social stigma for women to be viewed as sluts for making the first move or evening out the 4:1 ratio, and many possible romances fizzle out on the first date. Modern dating markets are so flooded with men on the supply side of the equation, that women rarely invest their time in a second date for "no chemistry" suitors.
Men have a perfectly rational fear here: the bar for what counts as felony sex assault has been lowered to "he made me uncomfortable when escalating (but I didn't say no)" from "he overpowered me after I said no." The legacy definition is extremely clear, but this new grey zone of flirting/foreplay is unmapped by normies. Pickup artists have been studying this for decades, but there's no universally agreed upon set of rules. On the other hand, insing women ignorant of the territory have come up with a reasonably self-consistent set of rules around dating (chad is exempt). Insings have also taken over the disciplinary boards in universities and some district attorneys offices' with these new rules.
The existential threats to young men who actually absorbed some of the "don't rape" lessons in grade school include:
All of these life-altering consequences may be applied over something relatively inconsequential as fingerbanging a drunk girl who verbally asks her date to "fuck me" over the course of about 5 minutes
Or two drunk teenagers flirting through text, mutually kissing, moving to a private location and then [disputed testimony]
I may update this post with more examples, but the first link took a massive federal lawsuit to reverse Ben Feibleman's expulsion from Columbia. I doubt his legal win has done much to repair his social life.
I'm not advocating for a retvrn to the 50s-70s dating rules (which were much clearer), but something must change on a cultural and legal level here. This is a primary variable in demographic collapse, although relatively unstudied. Men and women simply can't agree on the rules of flirting. Women have a near total legal control over sex, whereas men have near total physical control. A non-trivial number of men and women will refuse to compromise on this issue, at the cost of marriages and future children.
I mean, it seems like you could wait to have sex until you're married or in a long-term relationship? A super-majority of those scary situations you mention are driven by casual hookups or first through third dates. I know of no girls who, even if they came on to a guy in those circumstances, would object to his saying "Hey, could we wait a little? I really like you and I want to spend more time getting to know you before we get physical."
For me, it's the opposite. The dating market in (most?) western metro areas is extremely fast paced. Many of my friends have opted out of this market, but what's the alternative? Political/strategic marriage? Never marrying?
I don't see any way around it: if you want to select your spouse, you need to play the dating game.
So you're on the second date, a woman proposes sex, you say warmly that she is incredibly hot, but you'd like to wait because you're just enjoying getting to know her, and she... storms out? Blocks you? Calls the cops?
It's been a few years since I was on the market, but the rules were generally as follows:
first date--if I didn't make it very obvious that I wanted sex asap, there would be no second date. There wouldn't necessarily be sex on that first date, but I had better be pushing for it.
second date--if she proposed it as you suggest and I did anything but enthusiastically accept, the evening would've cooled immediately, the date would've ended, and there would be no third.
Trying to take it slow as the man is interpreted by the majority of women as a lack of genuine interest.
This is so genuinely foreign to me as an account of female behavior that I'm not sure what to say. I can't imagine acting this way, no woman I personally know has ever acted this way, I've encountered lots of younger women who blush at discussing sex in public and would self-evidently not act this way; but your experiences are your own, so I'm not going to refuse to #believemen.
I'm inclined, though, to probe the context of some of the experiences you're describing-- for instance, how often did you actually encounter women openly proposing sex, then turn them down? When you say that women would ghost you if you refused to sleep with them by the second date, were you arguing from a substantial base of direct experience in trying this, or just speculating from vibes like that one guy upthread? I can easily imagine its being a dealbreaker if a guy doesn't show enthusiasm and desire, but that's not at all the same as a "put out or get out"-style ultimatum about intercourse, specifically. For one thing, the initial question was whether guys could avoid rape accusations by holding off on sex until later in the relationship, and I've never encountered a rape allegation where the man countered that actually the woman openly threatened him if he refused sex.
But maybe it's just that dating is a land of contrasts, who knows.
I'd suggest your female friends and acquaintances are not necessarily portraying the same image of themselves to you (or anyone in their closer social circle for that matter) and the men they're attracted to.
I mean, sure, maybe? But at this point, in my own understanding, on the side of "the modal woman prefers emotional intimacy and romantic attention well before sexual intimacy" stands: my own introspection (n=1); the consistent testimony of any woman I personally know who's ever discussed relationships with me; the example of the various happily married women I know (myself included) whose husbands were their friends first, then committed boyfriends/suitors , then sex partners a good long way into the relationship, possibly even after marriage; and the revealed preference of women in our most popular female-authored hetero romance novels and films, all of which consistently center on a man who is passionately romantically interested, separately from his sexual interest in the woman as a piece of meat. So much so, indeed, that the plot of these movies usually spends a good bit of time introducing cheesy and implausible situations where the guy might prove his romantic interest and care-giving potential in definitively non-sexual ways.
On the side of "naw actually women are thots who adore, indeed insist upon, getting pumped ASAP by otherwise-indifferent guys" we have... a few vague assertions from gentlemen in heavy porn-watching circles who so far have confessed they never actually tried not seducing a woman ASAP, but they're pretty sure it wouldn't have worked out anyway, that ho.
Past a certain point, it starts sounding like "Who're you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"
Hold up. OP's claim was actually this: "Trying to take it slow as the man is interpreted by the majority of women as a lack of genuine interest."
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