This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Yeah, and WITHOUT marriage involved there's a common lower-class outcome of "guy knocks up 3 or more baby mommas, is involved in none of their lives, owes huge amounts of child support."
The alternative outcomes of a woman having no children whatsoever OR just having a child out of wedlock is generally not preferable!
My point is that even in the case where the woman is abandoned with a child in spite of being married, there are ample government and non-government social programs that will ensure she at least has a roof over her head, food, and protection from harm. IF she chooses to have a kid, a basic standard of living for said child is all but guaranteed.
Leaving out confounding factors like drug use or pure psychological illness, there is virtually no scenario where a woman is left destitute and to her own devices. Clearly it happens, there are a lot of homeless women out there, but in terms of risk calculation, for a 'normal' woman it is negligible.
And the one thing that reliably ensures a woman's happiness over the course of her entire life is generally "marriage to a decent guy and raising kids who love her." That's it. Nothing else provides the same level of consistent upside over the course of decades. And accepting the risk that a guy might eventually abandon her is the price of getting there.
If many women are too anxious or indecisive to take that initial risk, some additional social pressure to push them along would actually be beneficial overall.
Oh boy yeah, the amount of merry-go-round of A is with B, has baby, they split up, A goes on to C and B goes on to D, new babies: it's horrible. I saw it in a former job. But generally it is easier for a guy to move on to new partner (and new baby if new partner thinks this will solidify the relationship, though why they think that I can never figure out; he's already walked out on former wife and kids) than a woman with kids to get a new partner willing to commit. That's for nice middle-class people, not just the dregs and underclass.
And if you have a middle-class lifestyle, having the main breadwinner walk out and leave you with a couple of dependents does hit harder.
I've watched (from some distance) a scenario where a young woman gets knocked up by a guy she's living with, leave him, give the baby up for adoption, then finds another guy, gets knocked up, leaves him while pregnant and travels for a bit, gives the baby up for adoption, and then again just finds a guy to live with.
Insanely corrosive way of going through life.
But she can somehow always find a guy willing to put a roof over her head.
Sometimes I have to shrug and go "I have no idea how the hell this is working, but obviously it is".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link