site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 24, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The incentives seem misaligned when we reward our collaborators for failure. We spent decades and tens of billions of dollars training the ANA only for them to surrender practically without a fight. Giving them the prospect of an escape route to the US likely weakened their resolve rather than strengthening it. It also doesn't seem like the sort of behavior you'd expect from people who genuinely believe they will be executed or harshly persecuted by the new government.

I can see making an exception for rare cases that demonstrate remarkable courage or character as a PR strategy, but extending it to just about any collaborator is completely misguided.

If the incentives seem misaligned, that implicitly requires a perspective and understanding of what aligned incentives are. How much do you want to bet you can provide a set that others here couldn't trivially poke holes through?

You say that giving them a prospect of an escape route likely weakened their resolve. Why should their resolve to support the occupiers be any firmer if you, the occupier, make a policy that there is no escape? It should be rather obvious why that is creating an even greater incentive to not collaborate in the first place, which is what you the occupier need, and why this is a major incentive to side with the resistance whose mantra for decades was 'when the foreigners leave, we will still be here.'

Which, historically, was the winning strategy. Which is why the Afghan clans regularly played both sides, with family members on both sides of the conflict, so that if/when the GIROA failed they had family on the Taliban side who was willing to cover for them if they capitulated. It was the people who had undertaken acts of significant support of GIROA, often at foreign behest, whose families couldn't cover for them.

Yes, people are unlikely to fight to the death for you if they have an escape route. They are also unlikely to fight to the death for you if they do not have an escape route. This is because they are more likely to not fight for you in the first place, and even if they do are more likely to defect earlier on.

If your incentive strategy is moving the defection point even further up in the timeline, it should be visible why this is an even worse alignment of incentives.