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Louis C.K. was trending on Twitter because his Madison Square Garden concert was sold out, which some on the left are interpreting to mean that cancel culture is not real, or that it does not hurt people's careers. (link: https://archive.is/ryKrI )
What does it mean to be sufficiently canceled? I think Louis C.K. qualifies as having been sufficiently cancelled. If you look at his Wikipedia page, his sexual misconduct scandal, in 2017, killed off his TV and movie career. His filmography abruptly ends in 2017. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_C.K._filmography
Sure he's still able to sell out, but this reflects individual preferences for his comedy, not the approval of the media establishment, in which he is still damaged goods. Comedians are sorta like contractors in the sense that they have to hustle, not depend on a platform or the backing of a major media establishment. I think this is is what gives comedians an advantage over actors in regard to cancellation, because stand-up comedy can be inexpensively distributed at scale, such as digitally online, without needing the backing of an entire studio or publishing house.
Cancel culture regards the intent and attempt to end one’s career, reputation, and livelihood. Just like we did to the Nazis. It’s very real and very alive. That some Nazis escaped to South America does not change the Allies’ intent and attempt to hold them accountable.
What is risible is for ordinary people to try to give other ordinary people the Nazi treatment. Before social media, CK may have run into some small-time, inside baseball sanctions. Maybe FX and HBO get wind of allegations and fail to renew his hit series. And if the CK infractions are truly egregious and criminal, then maybe there is mainstream media coverage. But I believe the whispers here both started and were amplified by social media before mainstream media ran with it.
As mentioned by 2rafa, Louis would have if anything done worse under the old version of social punishments in more conservative societies. He would likely have been at a minimum ostracized, fired or run out of town(depending on his social position of course) and quite possibly been visited by a group of large lads (often the brothers and fathers of the girls involved) who would have had a somewhat violent word with the guy jerking off in front of the womenfolk.
Social media has expanded the reach, and social changes have made some changes as to what is actually tabooed (and why) but the underlying practices are thousands of years old and are intrinsic to social bonds and enforcing behavioral norms. We're not getting rid of them any time soon, and that's assuming we even should be trying to get rid of them.
Either I'm missing something, or this critique does not seem thought-through. Prior to the sexual revolution, all sorts of sexual improprieties occurred in a whole variety of contexts. The world was not, in fact, one big Baptist church picnic. I think you're mistaking both how (uniformly(?)) repressive the old world was, and how permissive the new world is. There were places where the response you describe would happen; those places involve tight-knit communities. I see no reason to think the theatres of a major urban center would display such dynamics, given the theater's long-standing link to sexual license, often decried by those same conservatives in the olden days. Female entertainers would most likely not have male relatives on-hand to provide retribution, since if they were still enjoying such protection they wouldn't be working as female entertainers.
I think this is wrong as well. You're correct that, faced with a moral vacuum, people are reinventing restrictive sexual ethics. Unfortunately, it's not the same sexual ethics, either in abstract principles or in the concrete methods of enforcement. These ethics aren't actually grounded on community, they aren't coherent, and their enforcement is both more capricious and less constrained than the old ways. The new method isn't long-term stable; the contradictions just thrash each other and everyone nearby endlessly.
What they are targeting may well be different, but the underlying practices of sub judicial social sanctions are pretty much identical. With the scope extended via easier communications and social media.
"Female entertainers would most likely not have male relatives on-hand to provide retribution, since if they were still enjoying such protection they wouldn't be working as female entertainers."
Yes but being an entertainer is high status now at least at the level they were interacting with C.K. (The Chris Rock Show and so on) so projected back they would be fairly low status in a fairly high status field themselves otherwise we are not controlling for social status in the comparison. This would of course be more constrained but perhaps they would be secretaries at a newspaper with C.K. the editor at another more influential paper or similar. And the fact it wasn't universal is moot because it isn't universal now either. There are surely many people who have masturbated in front of others in some mildly related work setting that we never hear about.
Whether the rules now are more capricious or coherent or whether their enforcement is stable doesn't mean it isn't the same phenomenon. Indeed the old version wasn't long term stable either as evidenced by it being overturned in many places.
You can certainly make an argument that the new version is worse or less understandable or more confusing I think, but so would the older version as you travel between locations and communities (as you yourself point out), the near instant communication we have now, means all those different versions are clashing all the time (online at least). My local hardware store still isn't going to fire someone using the rules of a progressive big city but according to his own local community.
I would certainly agree that a more stable version is definitely easier to navigate for everyone, but that would require (given the above) a very widespread one sided victory (including internal tribal variances) which I just don't see happening anytime soon.
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What is the difference between him jerking off in front of the womenfolk and the womenfolk giving him a handjob?
From all reasonable accounts, it seems to me that C.K had 'consent'. Unlike 2rafa, I think that is the crux of the matter as far as value judgments are concerned (I'm not very "trad"). With consent, the ladies had a weird sexual encounter, without consent they were victims of a sex crime. I understand that whether there was mutual consent or not is fuzzy and that's what makes this a scissor issue, but given the track record and incentives of other #MeToo victims, I would probably side with C.K's retelling of the story here.
Bill burr - No means no is a relevant video for this conversation. All I want to ask the ladies who supposedly regretted C.K. having done what he did is, why didn't you yell "NO!"? Doing that changes nothing, fair enough, but the fact you didn't do it is not normal human behavior towards a threat. If some lunatic is about to swing an axe at me, I will yell "stop don't kill me!", he might kill me anyways because he's a lunatic axe murderer, but me giving in without a semblance of a fight would be suspicious.
Perhaps uncharitably, in that instant they decided that there might be some advantage to them if they did not say "No!," and in retrospect realized that said advantage never materialized or wasn't worth the price they had paid for it. Seems to me like this is what is called "learning from experience," and calls for self-reflection rather than outward accusation.
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You might but then his (as you say) borderline pervy behavior would not have been accepted whether it was morally correct or not. Value judgments are subjective so as the people observing the behavior change, so to do the judgements and outcomes. In Woodstock he might have been ok, in a small rural town he might have been run out of town, in Northern Ireland back in the day he might have been kneecapped.
All of them are sub-judicial sanctions dished out by whatever community is involved. What Louis thinks is pretty much irrelevant in every case though, he isn't the one that is making the value judgement.
I think you are speaking past my point.
I am saying is, Were the women totally against what happened or not, in short, the angle I am pushing is that what if they were okay, or more than okay with him jerking off? But, claimed otherwise later for reasons.
What if it was a mutually agreed upon sexual activity?
My point is that this doesn't matter. Cads who seduced women into sex didn't get let off because they said yes. If you breach behavioral norms, you're in trouble regardless. In this case jerking off in front of people in a work environment EVEN if those people said yes is seen as bad. If he had picked up women in a bar and had consent then he would have been in a safer position.
If my BDSM proclivities get released there is a good chance I get fired or ostracized despite the fact I am meticulous about consent. Consent isn't the driving factor here.
Maybe prior to the sexual revolution, when women expected to have their sexual opportunities managed by family gatekeeping and prudish societal mores. When the oppressive nature of that paradigm was rejected and women claimed to want first-hand control over their own sex lives, it became their responsibility. If they feel that they are inadequately equipped to exercise this responsiblity, it's up to them to call for a return to the old model, but they won't, so they must prefer greater vulnerability. Why is any of this the cad's fault now? They are keeping it simple, at least.
Again its not about fault, it's about perception. Doesn't matter how hypocritical you think it is. You can have an oppressive paradigm and women's control, it can be entirely incoherent (not saying it is, but it can be). It doesn't have to make any sense whatsoever. I am not saying that is good, I am saying that is the situation.
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I keep on forgetting that consensual sexual acts between adults from the same workplace or career is Taboo in America, and in certain cases, the workplace is not a physical place but anywhere where you are with your coworkers, including a hotel room.
I'm being partially sarcastic.
Its not just the work part, the just jerking off part codes flasher in a park, not high status guy trying to fuck.
If he had asked them out to dinner, then taken them back to his hotel for sex, he looks more normal and less creepy.
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