This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
In the beginning, the C programming language was created, and there was much rejoicing. C is perhaps the single most influential language in the history of computing. It was "close to the hardware"*, it was fast*, it could do literally everything*. *Yes, I am simplifying a lot here.
But there were a few flaws. The programmer had to manage all the memory by himself, and that led to numerous security vulnerabilities in applications everywhere. Sometimes hackers exploited these vulnerabilities to the tune of several million dollars. This was bad.
But it's not like managing memory is particularly hard. It's just that with complex codebases, it's easy to miss a pointer dereference, or forget that you freed something, somewhere in potentially a million lines of code. So the greybeards said "lol git gud, just don't make mistakes."
The enlightened ones did not take this for an answer. They knew that the programmer shouldn't be burdened with micromanaging the details of memory, especially when security is at stake. Why is he allowed to call
mallocwithout callingfree?* The compiler should force him to do so. Better yet, the compiler can check the entire program for memory errors and refuse to compile, before a single unsafe line of code is ever run. *Actually memory leaks aren't usually security issues but I'm glossing over this because this post is already long.They had discovered something profound: Absent external forces, the programmer will be lazy and choose the path of least resistance. And they created a language based on this principle. In C, you may get away with not checking the return value of a function that could error. In Rust, that is completely unacceptable and will make the compiler cry. The path of least resistance in C is to do nothing, while the path of least resistance in Rust is to handle the error.
That's what makes Rust a better programming language. And I have to agree with the zealots, they are right on this.
...So I have to be disappointed when they're not.
Rust seems to keep popping up in the news in the past couple of months. In November, a bug in Rust code deployed by Cloudflare took down their infrastructure, and half the Internet with it. (Why Cloudflare even has a monopoly on half the Internet is a controversial topic for another time.) The cause? A programmer didn't handle the error from a function.
Well that's technically not true, they did. It's just that calling
.unwrap(), a function which will immediately abort the application on error, counts as "handling" the error. In other words, the path of least resistance is not to actually handle the error, but to crash. I argue that this isn't a better outcome than what would have happened in C, which would also be to crash. Sure, the crash won't be a segfault in Rust, but that doesn't matter if half the Internet dies.This month, a CVE was filed in the Rust part of the Linux kernel, and it turned out to be a memory corruption vulnerability, ironically enough. "But how could this happen?" Rust has these things called
unsafeblocks that let you do unsafe memory operations, closer to what you would be allowed to do in C (though granted, I have heard convincing arguments that unsafe Rust is still generally safer than C). So the path of least resistance is not to do things the safest way, but to just surround everything inunsafeif you get tired of fighting the borrow checker.I hear the same pitch all the time from Rust advocates. "C is unsafe, programmers are too fallible, we must use a language that forces good code." They consistently blame the language, and don't blame the programmer. So how did they react to the above incidents? Did they blame the programmer, or the language?
unwraplike that." "Duh, don't useunsafe, it's obviously unsafe."If I was one of them, I would throw my hands up and admit that the language didn't have guardrails to prevent this, so if I would blame C in a universe where the incidents happened in equivalent C code, then I should blame Rust here. But then, I wouldn't be a Rust zealot. I'd just be a Rust kinda-supporter. I'd have to carefully consider the nuances of the language and take into account various factors before forming an opinion. Oh no, the horror! And if I went the other way and blamed the programmer, it wouldn't be long before I'd have this nagging feeling that I'm just like a C-nile greybeard, telling the programmers to git gud, and at that point, there seems to be less of a point to using Rust if we just assume that programmers are infallible.
It's a Catch-22, in other words.
To be clear, I'm not saying that these incidents alone mean Rust is a bad choice for anything, ever. I'm not saying Cloudflare or Linux shouldn't use Rust. I'm not telling people what they should or shouldn't use. I'm just pointing out the double standards. Rust people can attack C all day using one set of (IMO, entirely justified) standards, but when they are confronted with these incidents, they suddenly switch to another set of standards. Or to put it more clearly, they have a motte and bailey. Motte: "Rust can't prevent shitty programmers from writing shitty code." Bailey: "C is unsafe, because of all the memory unsafe code people have written, and we should rewrite everything in Rust to fix all of it!"
In defense of Rust:
unsafefrom the perspective of Rust. Like even if all of technology is built from the ground up in only safe rust, well, pesky cosmic rays get in the way and flip a bit somewhere.unsafestuff, and like always, it's git gud time.unsafe/unwrap. This bumps up the chances of bugs being caught before code is even introduced, during review, or even when it gets through, it's easier to find out where.I find criticisms that Rust is not good for exploratory work (data analysis, game development, scripting, etc.) much more persuasive, but then that just goes back to "find the right tools for the right job".
If there is a cultural war element to this, I think broadly people are yet again conflating their distaste of the tool (Rust/gun) with their distaste of the users (Rust community/gun owners).
And maybe a greater technology story of the usual people thinks !new_thing will solve all their problems, but actually !new_thing will only solve most problems and the remaining ones are the really complex ones (leading to a paradox of automation). And then certain people become cynical and disappointed and retreat to their old tools when others younger and newer people just adopts and proliferate the use of the !new_thing and then someday the cynical people wake up and found they missed the boat.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link