This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This thread got so sidetracked by arguments about GDA and "America #1" but this
Is one of the biggest (arguably, the biggest) stories of 2025. The whole story of the West vs China is that we dominate in cutting edge tech, and they might manufacture a lot, but our qualitative advantage sustains our dominance. EUV (and mono-crystal jet turbines) are the poster children techs for "China may have an order of magnitude more industrial output, but they don't have our X!"
Now that paradigm is falling apart, it's scary.
Admittedly I am only skimming on what Asianometry presented on Youtube about Asian tech but his assessment is that big names mean very little in the EUV space. Lithography and chip fabbing are incredibly complex industries that are beyond the ability of a singular genius to sway. You need a team of geniuses in a vertically integrated industry with solid government backing and private investment to get anywhere.
Even China can't outbid the entire world for RAM and CUDA cores. Selling to themselves in a closed market forgoes a lot of profit on the international market and will only make prices go even higher. A lot of capital is being sunk into this next frontier of Great Power competition and the West has a great deal of control of the technologies that make it possible.
More options
Context Copy link
I have to confess that I do not have much trust in Chinese media accurately reporting on this matter, nor do I trust Reuters - what/how would they actually know? What other evidence is there, even if only circumstantial, that would suggest there has been real progress toward developing domestic EUV capability in China?
R&D in different sectors can be extremely different, but at least in the sectors I’m familiar with, I’m not very impressed by the current academic and research culture in China. It is certainly better than in 2015, as more and more people trained in the US, Germany, or elsewhere have returned to China, and creating some shift within academia and shifting from publishing papers in shitty predatory journals to producing higher quality research and technological development at least in Peking, Tsinghua etc that can rival the “west”. But considering how the broader academic culture continues to treat people like candles, burning them up and then tossing them in the trash, I don’t think this creates a good culture or working environment for many of the most ambitious and talented researchers. Maybe I’m wrong and corrupted by the west and turned into a soft-hearted baizuo already, and with enough talent China can afford to waste precious human capital like this (e.g. this or this (Chinese) or this (Chinese)), but I’m not terribly convinced.
More options
Context Copy link
Sputnik was a big story, Soviet technical competence was not. It will be a big story when we see deliveries of machines, first wafers, first chips. I allow that I may be wrong and trust the wrong sources. 2028 for first risk production seems plausible right now. Hopefully it will be resolved one way or another.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link