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PaperclipPerfector  18d ago (text post)   32281 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 5, 2026

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In general, yes. But given that she was in the process of turning away from him in order to drive away, it's very unlikely she would hit him unless she had done it deliberately.

Countered by the fact that she did, in fact, hit him, and by the fact that the car was delayed by the wheels spinning on ice.

The fact that you can come up with a scenario in which there would still be a threat even without the intent to do harm doesn't prove that intentions don't matter.

That's quite literally what that means. Conversely, having murderous thoughts does not justify shooting, if someone is unable to act on them. Intentions are irrelevant.

Her intentions determine the likelihood of her hitting him with her car.

The trajectory of her car is what it is regardless of her intentions. Many drivers miscalculate what their car will do. You are also still ignoring the fact that he has no way of knowing her intentions.

By the way, I think this example is illlustrative as almost a reductio ad absurdum. I think most people would find the ideat that, had she had an involuntary spasm, he would have been justified in shooting her, to be ridiculous.

I think you're wrong, and the people who would think that are simply refusing to out themselves in the position of the cop for ideological reasons. All the cop sees is a car driving at him, he has no way of knowing whether it's because of a spasm or deliberate action with the intention to do harm. He has to react to the material facts available to him from his perspective, not guesses about the state of mind of the suspect.

and I think the fact that your argument justifies shooting people who have involutarily lost control of their vehicles shows how weak this self-defence claim is.

I have no idea how this follows from anything you said.

Countered by the fact that she did, in fact, hit him

How do you know that?

You are also still ignoring the fact that he has no way of knowing her intentions.

You don't seem to grok the concept of probabilistic beliefs. Every little thing about the situation informs his beliefs about her intentions. He doesn't have absolute certainty about anything and that lack of certainty doesn't mean that the things about which he is uncertain are irrelevant.

All the cop sees is a car driving at him, he has no way of knowing whether it's because of a spasm or deliberate action with the intention to do harm.

We don't live in a world where cops are killing people who have lost control of their cars for medical reasons and I don't think many people who find that acceptable. The reason is that when the person getting shot is seen as innocent, people instinctively look for alternative solutions to preventing accidents than just killing the driver.

All the cop sees is a car driving at him, he has no way of knowing whether it's because of a spasm or deliberate action with the intention to do harm. He has to react to the material facts available to him from his perspective, not guesses about the state of mind of the suspect.

No, he does have to guess about her state of mind. He has to make his decision based on the totality of the evidence, even if it is uncertain. Guessing people's state of mind is a big part of police work. It's a skill he's supposed to have.

I have no idea how this follows from anything you said.

You seem to be arguing that a police officer standing in front of a car whose driver is having an involuntary spasm, and consequently driving towards him, is justified in shooting the driver.

How do you know that?

You can see him getting pushed back through the force of the car in one of the videos. He also suffered from internal bleeding as a result.

You don't seem to grok the concept of probabilistic beliefs.

I grok it, I just don't think the idea is particularly useful in the situation. Many suspects don't telegraph their bad intentions, and as a result, doing the kind of analysis you describe is just an easy way to get yourself killed when doing police work.

We don't live in a world where cops are killing people who have lost control of their cars for medical reasons

Because most of those people don't happen to lose control of their car when police are nearby, and when the car is posing obvious danger to them or others.

No, he does have to guess about her state of mind.

No, he doesn't. It's literally irrelevant whether the driver is coming at him with murderous intent, or with nothing but love and all the warm fuzzies in the universe, he can die either way, and has a right to protect himself in either scenario.

You seem to be arguing that a police officer standing in front of a car whose driver is having an involuntary spasm, and consequently driving towards him, is justified in shooting the driver.

Yes, but that does not imply the self-defense case is weaker.

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