This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
To clarify, I said "since the Cold War", not since WWII. Also, you say "any passing knowledge of America's founders, it's elder statesman, our civic religion more broadly and the virtues embodied therein puts lie to the notion Donald Trump could possible be some avatar of it." but what specific knowledge would that be?
Mistake on my part, I still think it is not true.
What kinds of virtues did the founders of America hold in high regard? Civility. Integrity. Humility. Temperance. How does Trump embody any of these? What is it about Trump, his actions or mannerisms, that people should find aspirational?
On one hand, sure: Trump is certainly not the avatar of those virtues.
One the other hand, neither was Clinton or Reagan. Or LBJ constantly waving his huge penis at all sorts of people. Unzipping and whipping out "Jumbo" all the time.
I don't even mean things as criticism against all these Presidents. They fail a certain high minded test of virtues. If they happen to promotion policies I want that's fine. If not then my real issue with them is policy disagreement more than failure at temperance.
Tump fucked porn stars. Clinton raped multple women. Kennedy fucked anything with three holes. Jefferson fucked at least one teenaged slave. I don't like any of it, but I'm not uniquely concerned about Trump's lack of temperance.
More options
Context Copy link
Personally I am less concerned with the virtues that the founders of America were purported to hold in high regard, than I am with the virtues that they displayed. Humble, civil, temperate men would not have committed treason against the crown by fomenting a rebellion. Integrity? Yes I would agree that on the balance, the men who signed the Declaration of Independence were men of integrity though I imagine that many of their loyalist compatriots would have disagreed. As for honesty, Trump's unabashed honesty is arguably the single biggest reason people vote for him. If you ask a Trump voter what they like most about him, more often than not you will get an answer to the effect of "Because he tells it like it is"
A lot of the lists of virtues of the founders come from Ben Franklin, who was rather notoriously lacking in some of them.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
If you mean "temperance" as in "Women's Christian Temperance Union", I recall reading that Biden and Trump are both teetotalers, and that W. Bush stopped drinking before he ran for president.
Sadly, your conclusion about the other virtues seems well-founded.
More options
Context Copy link
We haven't had a presidential hopeful that embodies those in 14 years, and the predicted hopefuls for the next round don't either. For the failed candidate that had a grain of any of those- well, hard to forget what one of the later shitbags said about him.
So no, I don't think Trump should be found aspirational. But damned if we're not starved for anyone else that can be, and that at least pretends to treat the country as something more than a paypig.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link