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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   30619 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023

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I think you are fighting a strawman of yimbyism. Of course everyone wants to live in pleasant neighborhoods with friendly stable people and not drug addict criminals! The nimbys don't have a monopoly of that desire.

Since you cited Coase. There's a very obvious path of reasoning that leads to one not being a "nimby", that is being for free markets. If you believe in the power of the market to allocate scarce resources among agents with infinite wants most effectively. Then dense housing will be built where dense housing is in demand because there is no stronger force in the universe than people wanting to make money. Using any form of political leverage to oppose such developments let that be through onerous zoning regulations or whatever is interfering with the free market, and as such creating economic deadweight losses.

A study by economists Chang-Tai Hsieh and Enrico Moretti estimated that the housing restrictions brought on by NIMBY activists are costing US workers $1 trillion in reduced wages, (several thousand dollars for every worker), by making it unaffordable to relocate to higher-productivity cities.

Your preferred mode of living would still be available in a world without rampant nimbyism of the likes present in America. It's not like there are no good neighborhoods with high-earning residents in Japan, or Korea or Finland or the UAE. But you won't have housing prices so ridiculously high that you start dun goofing the birth rates. If there is a demand for the type of living arrangement you so revere, it will exist even in a yimby world, you will have to pay for the privilege though (you already are in aggregate and directly). I've said it before and I will say it again, there is some serious bullshit afoot if random housing in your city costs more to rent than renting a much superior arrangement in the tallest building in the world in pure luxury.

A study by economists Chang-Tai Hsieh and Enrico Moretti estimated that the housing restrictions brought on by NIMBY activists are costing US workers $1 trillion in reduced wages, (several thousand dollars for every worker), by making it unaffordable to relocate to higher-productivity cities.

Wouldn't all the workers moving to higher-productivity cities lower the salaries of workers living in those cities? The glut of workers vying for jobs would probably bring the price down more than several thousand dollars for every worker.

And that wouldn't matter because on aggregate products will be cheaper (And ultimately everyone is richer on balance). I think @Ecgtheow said it a lot better than I could in another comment in this post.

Now you may say, my backyard is special and I value it over economic efficiency because I discount the value of future/geographically distant people who may want to move there. But if everyone applies this logic to their backyard we make it impossible to increase housing density anywhere, we underproduce an important commodity, and we get a housing affordability crisis. That's great for you because it increases the value of an asset you own, but it's bad for society as a whole because it reduces economic dynamism which libertarian economists are keen to remind us has diffuse benefits

For example, the value produced by biotech firms gets siphoned off by Madison area homeowners who used control of local government to enact regulations that restrict housing supply, raising prices, so that biotech firms have to offer higher wages to induce skilled workers to move there. This slows the creation of an agglomeration effect in biotech and reduces the margins of biotech firms, slowing the rate of innovation which would be beneficial to society as a whole.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and I was an econ major.

It does matter. There are winners and losers. The people two states over who get to save two cents at a time are better off, and the people put out of work are tens of thousands of dollars worse off, but there are enough pennies to balance the tens of thousands of dollars, so it's all a wash!

The world doesn't work that way, and while it can be modeled in such a fashion, you should not confuse that model with reality.

I don't care about what you majored in.

Arguing for maximally free markets is hardly a novel economic stance to hold. And yes I do think 10 people imposing anti-free-market policies to shift 2 pennies from 1000 people so that they could be 2 dollars richer is morally wrong. This is the standard free-market maximalist stance. Also, half the pennies get lost in thin air (DWL) the moment they make their deal with the devil (market restrictions) so they are 1 dollar richer each. I want there to be the most dollars in the world, not some people having a lot of them at the cost of others having less, sue me.

That's definitely a position.

There's a problem with basically lying about how "rising tide rises all boats" instead of admitting that you have this position and honestly telling the people who are getting fucked that they are getting fucked at least, not to mention actual redistributive efforts in their favor.

There was a Scott's post that I was never able to find, maybe of the Links kind, where he was seriously surprised that the majority of economists in some poll admitted that removing import tariffs hurts local workers. Because when you don't ask them directly they are very good at making it seem that the fact that their models only look at the GDP and such is OK because everything else is unimportant.

There was a Scott's post that I was never able to find, maybe of the Links kind, where he was seriously surprised that the majority of economists in some poll admitted that removing import tariffs hurts local workers.

Was it this one? It's about immigration, not tariffs, but otherwise seems to match pretty closely.

It appears I might just be totally miscalibrated on this topic. I checked the IGM Economic Experts Panel. Although most of the expert economists surveyed believed immigration was a net good for America, they did say (50% agree to only 9% disagree) that “unless they were compensated by others, many low-skilled American workers would be substantially worse off if a larger number of low-skilled foreign workers were legally allowed to enter the US each year”. I’m having trouble seeing the difference between this statement (which economists seem very convinced is true) and “you should worry about immigrants stealing your job” (which everyone seems very convinced is false). It might be something like – immigration generally makes “the economy better”, but there’s no guarantee that these gains are evently distributed, and so it can be bad for low-skilled workers in particular? I don’t know, this would still represent a pretty big update, but given that I was told all top economists think one thing, and now I have a survey of all top economists saying the other, I guess big updates are unavoidable. Interested in hearing from someone who knows more about this.

OMG THANK YOU! It's been bothering me literally for years!

How did you find it?

  • Googled site:slatestarcodex.com tariffs economists survey

  • Got the following articles and snippets

    1. Another Followup To "Economists On Education": If I remember my International Economics class, the theory actually suggests that tariffs can make a large, important country richer if it makes ...

    2. Please Take The 2018 SSC Reader Survey: Do you consider persistent depressive disorder to be depression for this survey, or only major depressive disorder? (For that matter, on surveys ...

    3. Book Review: Capital In The Twenty-First Century: Second, catch-up growth provides a powerful force for reducing inequality between nations.

    4. List Of Passages I Highlighted In My Copy Of Capital In The ...: I know that about 100% of economists who are not working for the Trump administration at this exact moment are against tariffs, but I don't ...

    5. Book Review: Ages Of Discord: Although most of the expert economists surveyed believed immigration was a net good for America, they did say (50% agree to only 9% ...

    6. Response To Comments: The Tax Bill Is Still Very Bad: First of all, the IGM Forum asked the nation's top economists whether the current tax bill would substantially raise GDP. 51% said it wouldn't, ...

    7. Predictions For 2020: Conditional on me asking about Reade on SSC survey, ... Economists surveyed during the beginnings of recessions don't generally realize ...

    8. Highlights From The Comments On PNSE: I analyze economist predictions, see that their track record of ... Remember, on the last SSC survey, 6% of respondents said they were ...

    9. A Thrive/Survive Theory Of The Political Spectrum: For a more comprehensive theory of economic self-interest and politics, ... from stereotypical leftist charges of “false consciousness”?

    10. The Tax Bill Compared To Other Very Expensive Things: I remember this Planet Money episode where a panel of economists ... the IGM, which is a nonpartisan survey of top economists surveyed them ...

  • Opened each of the links that looked promising (1, 4, 5, 6, 10) in a new tab

  • Searched for the term "econom" (which matches "economy", "economist", "economic").

  • Found the promising passage in the third article I looked at.

Had I failed to find the passage through those methods, I would have retried the same search with site:astralcodexten.substack.com and site:lesswrong.com.

While it is generally true that Google sucks at search these days, it is still useful if you know what site you're looking for something on.

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