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The women performatively "hating men" mostly do not, by revealed preferences, hate men. Incels really do hate women, and while you can cast them as victims, they are victims only of their own inadequacy and self pity. Society isn't making them feel that way , and society isn't obligated to reorder itself so women who don't want them will want them.
As for their being such a difference in how society treats women, yes women have their own pressures men don't, which many of them find very unfair and oppressive.
I don't think society is as hard for either one as they say, and find whiny feminists and loser men equally insufferable, mostly victims of their own mindset.
Completely avoiding the moral judgment, if we don't meet a post-scarcity society soon, societies that wish to continue, or at least, continue supporting the elderly, may begin to attempt this.
Whether they succeed or not is another story entirely, but the desperate flailing may be extremely torturous. When women can achieve status in ways other than marriage, they won't marry, and the baby bust trends with marriage bust.
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Strong disagree. What percentage of incels do you think would accept a romantic/sexual relationship with a reasonably attractive woman? (In fact, incels regularly tease each other over the fact that most of them would "ascend" if they had the opportunity.)
The question is what is the source of their hate, not whether they are victims.
Assuming this is so, so what? Have I stated or implied otherwise?
Again, assuming this is so, so what? Does this contradict anything I have said?
Again, assuming this is so, so what? It seems reasonably clear that in the area under discussion, society is far more accepting and accommodating of women's unreasonable desires than it is of men.
Of course every incel would leap at the chance to score an attractive woman. That doesn't mean they actually like women.
Does society have more sympathy for women? (The "women are wonderful" syndrome?) Yes, generally so (at least in the West). That doesn't mean incels deserve sympathy, any more than the proverbial carousel rider does.
I'm a little confused now. Above, you said this:
What exactly is it that these women are doing to reveal their preferences? I had assumed you meant that they dated men. What did you mean?
I'm even more confused. Let's suppose incels don't deserve any sympathy whatsoever. Does this contradict anything I have said?
Assuming this is so, so what? Have I stated or implied otherwise?
Again, assuming this is so, so what? Does this contradict anything I have said?
Again, assuming this is so, so what? It seems reasonably clear that in the area under discussion, society is far more accepting and accommodating of women's unreasonable desires than it is of men.
I'm really having a hard time figuring out what your point is. Please answer my questions so I can understand your position.
When you stated that "The women performatively 'hating men' mostly do not, by revealed preferences, hate men," exactly what are these women doing to reveal their preferences?
Let's suppose incels don't deserve any sympathy whatsoever. Does this contradict anything I have said?
Have I stated or implied that "society is obligated to reorder itself so women who don't want [incels] will want them." If so, where exactly did I do so?
Assuming that "women have their own pressures men don't, which many of them find very unfair and oppressive," does this contradict anything I have said?
Assuming that society is not as hard for either men or women as some say, and assuming that whiny feminists and loser men are equally insufferable, mostly victims of their own mindset, does this contradict anything I have said?
It looks to me like you are just trying to change the subject. Because otherwise, I have no idea why you are bringing up all this other stuff.
They have relations with men that are not consumed with hate and resentment. A PMC chick tweeting about "#Killallmen" is obnoxious, but is she actually spending her life hating on men, like incels do about women? Generally not. When an incel occasionally manages to land a relationship, he either drops the incel act, or his seething resentment and sense of entitlement still poisons the relationship.
2-4: You claimed I was "copping out" by pointing out that society is also hard on women. You apparently take the position that it's worse for men and women have it easier. Much of this seems based on the grievances of men who don't do well. So no, the fact that incels are unsympathetic doesn't in itself contradict any theory of society being harder on men, but it makes me wonder why you are arguing that we should be sympathetic to incels, and why you want a declaration against both-sidedness. Nothing you have said makes the case that society is in fact more unfair to men than women. Society is "accomodating" to women's sexual desires, because men will always "reward" women willing to offer sex. But they are punished differently than men–men are "punished" by not getting laid; women are punished by the reality of the dating market and aging, with some hard truths it is impolitic to talk about nowadays. I reject your thesis that women just coast on "Women are wonderful."
How do I know whether a person's relations are "consumed with hate and resentment"? Seriously, how would one know?
Actually, forget it. See below.
How do you know that incels spend their lives hating on women? To be sure, some post a lot of hateful messages online, but how do you know that's their life?
Actually forget it. See below.
What is the "it" in "it's worse for men"? I have no idea what you are referring to.
Actually forget it. See below.
Please show me where I so argued. Please quote me. Failing that, please admit I said no such thing and apologize.
Actually forget it. See below.
I have no idea what your point is here. Do you concede that my point was about a single issue -- whether society is more accommodating of female sexual desires than male sexual desires? If so, what difference does it make whether anything I have said makes the case that society is in fact more unfair to men than women?
Actually forget it. See below.
Having finished reading your post, I see that you (1) have evaded my simple questions which would have allowed me to understand your position; and (2) aggressively strawmanned me. I made a point about one narrow issue: Accommodation of male sexual desires versus female sexual desires and you tried to pretend it was a discussion about something else.
I don't engage with people who hide their position behind a cloak of ambiguity and I don't engage with people who strawman me.
This discussion is concluded. Goodbye.
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