This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
There's talk, and there's what trump is doing. Those aren't jokes, or some trash-talk at the ballgame. When he says he doubts we will come to america's aid, insult aside, that means america possibly won't come to ours. So our alliance is worthless, and we need to make new arrangements immediately.
If he attacks greenland or canada like he threatens, it's even simpler: we'll just shoot, and people will die - maybe even a real war like russia-ukraine. It's not like Ukraine's weakness stopped ukraine from shooting back, like many thought. Or the fundamental stupidity of the operation stopped Putin from attacking.
This is reality. Trump is dispensing with some of the polite fictions because they are distorting peoples' perception of actual reality. In reality, there are not many scenarios where Europe can possibly come to America's aid in any substantive way other than moral support, regardless of treaty obligations. That's Europe's choice, and for better or worse it makes them a much less valuable ally.
So I interpreted it correctly. Let's just wind this thing down. I am honestly tired of explaining the value of an alliance with a bloc with a huge economy and population and very similar interests. I can't do it anymore, despite being an Americanophile through and through. We are too far apart on what we think the other brings to the table. Or maybe we hate each other like an old couple.
I want merz and everyone to tell trump to fuck off in no uncertain terms and stop giving him face-saving exits. Full tariffs, leave ramstein, etc. It's headed towards it anyway. They are slowly learning to deal with Trump's trick of defect defect defect until he finds resistance.
Why would you suppose we have very similar interests?
What sort of American?
There's a considerable number of Americans who would welcome this, I'd imagine.
I don't want to live in Europe. I don't want to live anywhere like Europe. I don't want where I live to become more like Europe, even marginally. I would prefer actual war against the authorities to this happening. Your entire social consensus is inimical to what I view as fundamental human rights and basic principles of liberty. We are not friends in any meaningful sense; you are allied with my tribal enemies, and will be for the foreseeable future.
Again, Carney says it best:
I perceive integration with Europe one of the major sources of my subordination.
oh generally, if you can like people in general. It's ideological convergence mostly: individualism, freedom (especially speech), plus a certain "moral affinity for the strong". I think american hegemony was largely beneficial.
You: have a pathological hatred of the blue tribe, which you transfer onto europeans. One day, frustrated in your attempts to provoke a civil war at home, you'll charge naked at Greenland or Vancouver. Decoupling from such volatile and extreme polarization makes sense, of course.
A bit up-thread @lollol linked Issendai's deep-dive into the world of estranged parents' forums, I can't help but see echoes of it here.
Trump has been a public figure for 30+ years. he wrote an entire book about how "there are no friends or foes at the negotiating table, only competing interests", about the necessity of "doing away with polite fictions in favor of honest dialog", and the utility of using intentionally erratic and absurd behavior to to sus out hidden motives and insecurities. "Slam the door and see who flinches" is how he put it.
...and a lot of commentors, including both yourself and the OP, seem to be tying yourselves in cognitive knots to avoid considering the possibility that he might have actually meant what he said. They keep going on about how Trump is being abusive and spitting in their face but they're ultimately acting the role of the toxic parent who refuses to accept the fact that their children have moved out of the house and now have careers and families of their own. They keep trying to play the "So long as you live under my roof and I'm paying the bills you need to shut up and do as I say" card, but that's just the thing, you have not been paying the bills.
Wait, how on earth are the europeans the parents in this analogy? Rutte (who should seriously stfu) called Trump Daddy, which is imo one of the sources of his late megalomaniac bender.
I tend to side with the parents on such forums (and the mirror "my mom is a narcissist" type). My prior is that the reasons given by the kids really are stupid. Most of pop psychology consists of inventing reasons why your parents made you a failure.
Wow, that post is evil. Especially the final part where it denies the possibility of healing the relationship. Of course it approvingly cites an "Expert" anonymous psychologist (who else?), who seems to think that threatening to end the relationship with your parents is the best way of winning an argument. A mom cites a clearly stupid reason their kid hates them, people take a step back, and then go "I'd like to go back to the cornflake issue". Beyond parody.
Anyway, that illustrates that I have a moral affinity for the strong. My sympathy initially lies with the US, and also (slightly) with trump against the democrats. But his late behaviour towards us is unacceptable and I just want out. We are no longer friends, I accept that, but we are not children to be abused and threatened at will, and if he continues, then we will be enemies.
The Europeans are the parents in this analogy in part because you (that is Europe) made us. We were amalgamation of Anglo, French, Dutch, and Spanish colonists before we became "The United States" and to some extant we still are. There is still a great deal of pride in that ancestry and a strong cultural affinity even today.
But pride and affinity don't pay the bills. You ask "how on earth are the Europeans the parents in this analogy" and then go on to take the parents side. Maybe it's my own experience sharing a family with addicts and alcoholics but I am much less inclined to simply dismiss the kids as "stupid" out of hand, and maybe that's why I feel the post is relevant.
Pointing out that Europe is a weak and unreliable ally who's values often clash with ours, and who is at this very moment actively funding the ongoing slaughter in Ukraine through their purchases of Russian energy and goods is not "abuse" it is an explanation.
You might not like what was said, or who said it, but that doesn't change the fact that you know the reason why many in the US are cooling towards Europe, but Just like the parents in that post you avoid acknowledging it.
To quote the closing monologue...
You are not understanding the problem. Talking to me like we‘re negotiating the amount of the „fair share“ I should pay to you, or what I need to do for Ukraine or in our internal politics to accomodate you .
No. Listen to what I‘m saying. You say you have affection for europeans, and I feel the same about americans, but we are beyond that now. Our relationship has been irreparably damaged by trump‘s threats and insults. I am not like trump – saying outrageous things as a negotiating anchor with the intention of backing down to a lower number, or macho trash-talking, empty bragging about my own strength. I mean what I say. I want to make it official that our alliance is cancelled, and americans out of europe.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link