site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 16, 2026

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

We are all trying to frame our words to be palatable to the community so we are not downvoted into oblivion. We are all "building a ledger" of credibility so that people will listen when we have something controversial to say.

Nay.

I recall not posting this because I knew it wouldn't be very popular. However, you may be noticing that I've linked to an actual post, because when I noticed that I was doing that I decided to post it anyway because caring about vote counts is letting the algorithm rule you. In any case, I'm pretty lousy at determining which posts will get downvoted into oblivion; I expected this to get downvoted to hell, but it's higher than most of my posts. I'm just being myself, responding to things I notice that I think I can clarify or correct, because I have the autistic need for things to be right.

About the only things I filter out of my posts here are the death threats/KYS and the "how to be a terrorist" advice. Neither of those is because I'd be downvoted to hell, although now that I think about it I suppose I would be if I went around threatening to eat people's livers. I don't make death threats primarily because empty threats are lies and I don't tell those, and secondarily because I actually think that having a civil debate forum is good and hence by the categorical imperative I'm obligated to be civil here. I mostly don't give out "how to be a terrorist" advice because that'd be depraved indifference to human life*; TBH, though, I don't manage to catch it all. (In-person I'm less careful, both out of lesser ability to catch things in real time and because hopefully a lot more people read theMotte than are listening in on my conversations.)

There are some fora where I behave considerably more strategically. Those are fora that have made it clear that I'll be banned if I keep acting normally. I still don't adopt a false persona there, or try to "build up a ledger" of posts they'll approve of to give myself breathing room. I just don't post there unless I have something that's high-leverage - if it actually matters, or if I need to find out something that I can only feasibly learn by asking them. This is still to a large degree a hostile strategy, and I feel bad about it from time to time. But no, theMotte has never been one.

And there are times - very rare times - where I fully try to make something persuasive. Even then, I try not to say anything I don't mean (I lie only if I have reason to believe that staying silent or telling the truth could both plausibly and somewhat-imminently end in a homicide), but I've dusted off the Dark Arts from time to time. Vocabulary choices to not sound elitist. (Sincere) love bombs. Quoting a narcissist's argument back at him instead of making one of my own. I don't pretend that they're not Dark Arts, though, and I don't use them often.

*One can argue in favour of terrorism for some specific cause. It's much harder to argue in favour of making terrorists more effective in general.

I don't mean to claim that you, me or everyone here is only here in an attempt to gain popularity. That's prima facie not true, though I could name names.

If I was optimizing for popularity over everything else, I wouldn't write nearly as much about AI. I'd stick to LessWrong instead. They're some of the posts I put the most effort into, for the least return in the form of upvotes. So be it, I talk about that because I care.

(Unlike you, I have strong opinions I never share. Not here, not elsewhere, not even anonymously, not even to people I know IRL. No point guessing what those are, but I don't come on here and say the opposite either, since that would just be lying.)

What I object to is the indiscriminate application of the word "propagandist" in a bid to apply the negative connotations while using an entirely unobjectionable definition and examples. Clear argument and rhetoric aren't Yudkowskian Dark Arts. Rhetoric can be part of the Dark Arts, but only when used to deceive or mislead.

Rhetoric is still Dark Arts even when you believe what you're saying. The problem is that you might believe it wrongly, and thus someone convinced by it might be convinced of a falsehood; it's a symmetric weapon. This also means it's not something the listener would necessarily, from an omniscient viewpoint, wish to be convinced by, and it's hence something the listener may wish to protect himself from; it's not necessarily co-operative. Hence, Dark.

You do realize that a listener refusing to listen to valid and true arguments (presuming they are) is the fault of the listener?

It is up to you, and anyone else calling him a propagandist to justify that:

a) His arguments are invalid, or logically valid but based on false premises.

b) That he has nefarious intent (above and beyond simply having politics you dislike)

Attempts have been made for A. I do not find them convincing. Fuck all has been shown for B.

Without that, you're just smearing by association, using an adjective so broadly defined that it covers anyone who tries to write online, let alone those who do so successful. Including people you like.

Further, it is trivial that convincing writing and good rhetorical technique is a symmetric tool. You need to demonstrate that is actually being used for ill in this specific scenario.