This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Neither of those things. The manosphere Is Problematic because it convinces young men to get off the path of contributing to society in the way that society wants men to contribute to it, when it is easiest to get started on that path of filling the male role in society. Yes, feminism does the same thing for women and the double standard exists, but two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, there are legitimate issues the manosphere points to- just like feminism, which really did call out some bad stuff- but most of it is whining and secession from public contribution. Society needs young men to study for career skills, work hard, join the army, etc. Young male activities which seem pointless but which society is largely pro(such as team sports) largely do push towards these goals at least somewhat.
Yes, but what "society" wants is unreasonable. Not because what it wants in terms of contributions, but because of what it's willing to provide in return -- which is that they can keep some of the money they earn, and that's it.
Well, there's a very good reason other than physical fitness for why societies tend to try to get men into the military at young ages like 18.
It's signing up to kill people on government orders and potentially die yourself, to protect a society that on an institutional level barely knows that you exist and will do relatively little for you, compared to what it asks of you, if you ever fall on hard times.
It is an easier sell to young naive reckless men than it is to men who have more life experience.
The government by and large does follow through on it's promises to soldiers.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Fair enough but I was posing that query to the anti-manosphere folk, not a TheMotte user. I agree with what you say, but that is not what the usual critics regularly write screeds about. Nor are they the champions of healthy male bonding activities like team sports. Au contraire, it's the same folk who believe (or flock with people who believe) that the Boy Scouts was exclusionary for only allowing boys. The subject of their concerns is always women and being palatable to women.
They wanted access to the boy scouts because the girl scouts suck, and they're seemingly pretty happy with the gender-segregated compromise. They may not be championing team sports but they're more than happy to point to them as good when the situation calls for it, and they aren't complaining vocally about it either.
The manosphere complaints are taken seriously by the powers that be for the reasons I just outlined, and not for 'protecting women and girls' reasons. That's BS, tPtb don't care about that- see also, Weinstein. 'Protecting women and girls' is, however, a potent meme for getting nice, middle class moms onboard, and you cannot run a campaign of adolescent-targeted censorship without parents, China is failing at it let alone the west.
While yes, feminism is running a very similar campaign with very similar effects towards girls and young women, that's completely true. I'm not claiming there's not a double standard here, but the powers that be are also very concerned about lower class defections from feminism resulting in shit they have to eat the bill for(like teen pregnancy). That's why the FLDS got raided despite not really having child welfare concerns(Texas CPS basically said they couldn't find a reason, and nobody likes the FLDS)- because they're all doing welfare fraud without engaging in the appropriate political machinery. Like it or not, lower class defections from feminism tend not to wind up as happy 50's larping stepford due to the reactionary impulse not itself providing any alternative to feminism. Organized groups with some alternative lifestyle who either support themselves or form political machines to cover their welfare fraud? Anglosphere governments don't really care all that much.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link