This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
My only question is why don't you just use "Antisemite", did that lose its luster so "Jew Hater" is the new word for it? It's more emotionally loaded I suppose which is the only reason you invoke it.
I spoke of people who hate Jews as the reason they complain about Israel. You were the first in this thread to use "Jew-hater" (technically "Joo hater" is what you came in with). Is there a meaningful difference? Seems like you'll complain whichever label I use.
I don't know, is there a meaningful difference between an antisemite and someone who "hates Jews" in your mind? Is it possible to be antisemitic and not hates Jews?
Who are people who are critical of Jews but are not "people who hate Jews" in your mind, who are not fully or partially Jewish themselves? Like Pat Buchanan probably fits in that zone, even though he has been called antisemitic plenty despite watering down his critique to desperately avoid that accusation.
The whole thing really is just a slur for people who criticize Jewish behavior, even if it's rational and necessary.
Edit: Damn, ADL says Buchanan is a Jew-hater so I guess he doesn't count. Anyone else? Bueller? Or is "Jew Hater" really just a slur for people who engage in criticism of Jews after all?
I suppose it's possible to be an antisemite in the sense that you think Jewish culture is adversarial, or Judaism is false (and/or going to send you to hell) while simultaneously believing individual Jews can be good people even if they practice Jewishness. So in that sense, "Jew-hater" is a subset of "antisemite" (though a very large subset, almost but not quite isomorphic). I don't know where you are in the Venn diagram since you pointedly refuse to clarify your views, but antisemite, definitely, and hates Jews, well, sure seems like it.
I mean, the George Wallace comparison was already made. Lots of people who think blacks are inferior human beings or want segregation don't think of themselves as hating blacks or being racist.
So, I gave you a detailed and sincere answer. Now answer my question: what is "Jewish behavior"? I don't mean the head of the ADL or Benjamin Netanyahu. I mean some average Jewish person of no importance or influence. What about their "Jewish behavior" makes them worthy of being hated?
But wait, George Wallace is not even an example of what I am asking for. I asked you for anyone who is critical of Jews but not a "Jew Hater" in your mind or in the minds of the Jewish NGOs that determine this sort of thing. This is an important question, because if you deny my claim that "Jew Hater" or "Antisemite" is a slur for people who are critical of Jews, you ought to be able to identify people who are critical of Jews but with the faith of being spared that accusation. So, where are they?
The fact is, it is a slur meant to destroy the reputation of anybody who gets too close to the truth on those questions. That's what it's for, that's what you're using it for. It's a consensus-enforcement mechanism. Actual "hatred" does not play into it, it's a slur.
I'll accept Patrick Buchanan, though I don't know what he really thinks of Jews personally, and my understanding is he mostly thinks they're going to go to hell for not being Christian. I don't know of any prominent "antisemite but doesn't actually hate Jewish people" public figures, partly because they are usually like you: they'll deny hating anyone but talk very vaguely about why Jews deserve to be hated. I made my best attempt at describing a hypothetical antisemite who doesn't "hate" Jews, and if you don't think the George Wallace comparison fits, I don't know what example you are looking for.
If you want an example of someone who is "critical of Jews but not a Jew hater" then tell me why they are "critical of Jews." That's what I'm asking you for. As I understand it, you think Jews are antiwhite parasites or something. Does this stem from their religion? Their culture? Their biology?
You complain that antisemitism is just a slur to destroy people who know "the truth" but you won't explain what this great truth is. "Jews bad" is the best I can get, and yet I am not supposed to conclude 'Okay, so you hate Jews."
They are critical of Jews because those criticisms of Jews are true, important, and necessary.
I've lived my entire life surrounded by criticism of White culture, identity, and religion, only I never called those people "White-Haters" I called them Professor and I watched their movies and read their books. Jews engage in constant, sharp criticism of White culture, religion, and identity. Some of it is true, a lot of it is false. Maybe it's because I grew up surrounded by it that I'm not inclined to prosecute someone as a "White-hater" for engaging in a criticism of White people, I'm happy to engage the argument rather than litigate emotionally-loaded labels.
But growing up has also made me aware of the state of affairs in which Jews, through all political and cultural institutions they exercise influence, incessantly engage in cultural criticism of White culture and identity while screaming "Jew hater!" to any White person who reciprocates criticism of Jewish culture and identity.
I think I've demonstrated the point, you were unable to identify anyone who engages in criticism of Jewish culture and identity to the extent that thousands of renowned Jews have engaged in criticism of White culture and identity throughout all our cultural institutions- without the baggage of being accused of Jew Hater by the Jewish NGOs that make this sort of determination. Your label does reduce to- anyone who engages in criticism of Jews, but you reserve no label for Jews who engage in criticism of white identity, history, and culture.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link