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PaperclipPerfector  1d ago (text post)   5012 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 30, 2026

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So "Into The Manosphere" is a netflix documentary, that im sure many here have heard of.

Here is a video on it that I watched, by a psychiatrist. Although I enjoyed it enough, there is a common sentiment that deserves to critiqued, one that was echoed in the video, that i will simplify with a youtube comment (note: this comment is in response to another comment, the context of whic i will be representing by {} brackets):

See, this is what has always genuinely confused me, too.{Why should we be good men? Just be a good person bro?} Why is there so much emphasis on the man part{of male role-modes} (except maybe that's literally part of patriarchy, too)? I didn't grow up thinking about how to be a woman, I grew up thinking about wanting to be a scientist and wanting to travel and be a generally good and mostly happy person. The whole being a woman thing was just something society forced on me that I mostly resented. Just teach people to be good, healthy, functional people.

But a lot of men, including people I genuinely respect and agree with on sociopolitical issues still seem to think there's value in some type of male identity. And maybe there is, but no one has been able to explain it to me. But the need for some kind of masculine identity just seems like insecurity and needing a set of rules to live by from the outside, instead of doing the work of learning to be a whole, messy, beautiful human being.

And don't get me wrong. I think men get confined to a tighter box in terms of acceptable behavior than women, even as that box often comes with higher social standing. Sometimes, I feel really sad for boys that have to grow up in this mess. But also, how hard is it to just learn to be yourself without all the weird, gendered expectations? I'm really very baffled by it all.

I think this gender abolitionist framing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Men & Women are judged and valued by society differently. Men are valued based on their ability to climb up social hierarchy to obtain status. Women's value is more reflected by their attractiveness, and reproductive capabilities. Masculinity (attempts) to provide useful guidelines and structure to achieve this end. Women simply do not exist in the same space, so their variation of being a role model wouldn't be a good representation of the male position. It would be a kin to a white man trying to be a role model for black boys - the critical social context is not there.

Women don't grow up thinking about how to be woman, because much of what defines femininity is there by default. You are simply born a sexy girl - you simply gestate a fetus - and then give birth to it. There is little to no skill barrier required in comparison.

The problem with "being yourself" as so often espoused by liberal types is that, it provides 0 road map to achieving the traits that women (and people in general) value in men. & this is the same general issue I take with the manosphere opponents - Many of these individuals believe completely asinine and reality denying ideas like "Looks don't matter" or "You just need to be a good person to be attractive". The manosphere, for all its misogyny and toxicity, is at least calling out the reality of the situation: If you are poor, fat, and socially inept - as a man, you will be harshly judged and looked down on within our society. This is - arguably - one of the main appeals of the manosphere to begin with. If one really wants to see the manosphere go away - we need to start looking at these realities of life straight to the face. Only then can one begin to provide meaningfully positive alternatives.

If you are poor, fat, and socially inept - as a man, you will be harshly judged and looked down on within our society. This is - arguably - one of the main appeals of the manosphere to begin with. If one really wants to see the manosphere go away - we need to start looking at these realities of life straight to the face. Only then can one begin to provide meaningfully positive alternatives.

Isn't this one of the ironies of the situation? The anti-manosphere folks generally also claim to oppose judging people for being any/all of "poor, fat, and socially inept". Maybe they even believe their own propaganda, but fail to actually deliver on their stated values: maybe things would be different if all these men easily found dates among "progressive healthy-at-any-size neurodivergence activist" women who consider each other high-status, but clearly they're not.

There isn't a shortage of people who claim to be "looking at these realities of light straight to the face", but I don't think that's "meaningfully provided positive alternatives", in part because they've largely gone in different directions with this. As a guy, I'm somewhat more sympathetic to "nose to the grindstone self-improvement" (although I won't endorse the chauvinism) over virtue signaling for ineffective change in society, but it's not hard to see that everyone is really just talking past each other. Not that I have a better proposal.

The anti-manosphere folks generally also claim to oppose judging people for being any/all of "poor, fat, and socially inept".

This is just the scaled-up social version of the stereotypical "I wish I could find someone like you!" and "Just be yourself!" from a woman to a friend-zoned guy, isn't it? She thinks she's judging him positively! They're good friends! She wants to see him find a girlfriend, and thinks it should be easy for him! She just "doesn't think of you in that way", for what she assumes are inexplicable random reasons uncorrelated to what other girls will think, certainly not for any reasons that might sound superficial if identified and examined.

It's tempting to be critical of people who can lie to themselves in such a fashion, but just about everybody seems to do it (about some topic, if not this one), so by induction I'm probably doing it too, so self-interest alone says I probably want to vote for mercy over justice here.

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