This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Don't labor under the illusion that, with just the right artfully chosen words, you will change their mind. People are not stupid. They will see through your disclaimers and will see only a Republican bigot. Because that's what you are to them.
So how do you change someone's mind? You raise or lower their status. Woke people are not, for the most part, following genuine principles. They are following incentives. In this case, the incentive is status. You change their mind by showing expressing disgust in their low status beliefs.
Don't try to convince someone that their opinions are wrong. Convince them that their opinions are boring and low status. Oh, you're still woke? Lol, okay. And then don't invite them to the party. If this works, the individual will gradually try on new better opinions which you can reward with laughs and invitations. They still won't have genuine principles. Almost no one does.
Of course, this only works if you yourself are popular and high status.
So how do you change someone's mind? Work on being high status. Be attractive. Don't be unattractive. If you are pimply face nerd with poor social skills, your efforts can only backfire.
Elon is the definition of low-status.
He claims to abhor woke ideals. But faces all the problems that trads claim their alternatives can fix. Elon can't hold down a stable relationship, names his children like twitter blue-checks name their mental illnesses and is estranged from multiple of his own children.
He was so insecure about his hair, that he went and got a hair transplant. He claims to be a free speech absolutist, yet censors people on twitter. He underpays and overworks his workforce. He goes on twitter tantrums like the Trigglypuff meme and lastly, he gets a LOT of things wrong. From the cringe robo-dance to "self driving is only 1 year away", Elon has gotten enough wrong that his rights can never make up for it.
This is before Elon became the internet meme of today. I presented a review paper on why hyperloop was a stupid idea in 2013. A self-driving group that I worked with in 2018 was absolutely confident that Tesla's 2d-selfdriving was going to backfire bigtime.
In comparison to Elon, Peter Thiel is a similar right-coded-anti-woke asshole, but he is far more high status. Quietly bankrupts Gawker because they outed you as gay. Builds the future of the surveillance state. Funds actually smart researchers to publish peer reviewed studies which show the ineffectiveness of woke culture. Goes full Republican and sticks with it. Still unashamedly gay.
Elon cares too much about how he is perceived. Such a man can never be seen as high status.
But he has those children, which puts him way up on Thiel from a trad viewpoint.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link