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Why do a lot of women not like acknowledging the practical aspects of dating? By this I mean that women appear to be put off by me simply discussing:
Of course I'm not discussing these topic with women I'm trying to actually date, I'm not that autistic. But if you're trying to actually find a partner to settle down and have kids with, how do you not take all of these into account? Not only does it reek of impracticality, but on an even deeper level, it appears that any attempt to practically model the dating world at all produces a negative female reaction.
(Maybe it's because some of these women don't ever intend on having kids and therefore don't ever have to be realistic about dating.)
I can assure you that a large number of men say the same, even intelligent and reasonable ones.
As a personal example: while I was still in India, I was seriously contemplating minor plastic surgery. I wasn't depressed, I wasn't in a rush; I'd deferred it over a year because my parents had thrown a fit, and they wanted me to try and lose weight and get fitter the old fashioned way (which I did). I'd seen a surgeon. I had a tentative date.
I broached the topic to my closest friend group back home. All men. Handsome men. Smart men. Good with the ladies, even if some of them are clearly in a different league. When I'm with them, I'm acutely aware that I'm not the most handsome man in the group, not even the tallest (there's a real big mf in there). I insist that this is not cause for malignant envy or jealousy, I love those guys. They've been nothing but good to me, and vice versa. They've often told me that they're slightly jealous of me, because of the things I'm good at, or just happen to have a natural talent in. Some of us are taller, some of us are richer, some of us are less depressed. But we're all smart, funny motherfuckers, if I say so myself.
Yet, when I broached the topic, and told them that I'd made up my mind to go ahead? They were surprised, somewhat dismayed, and begged me to reconsider. I was ready for this. I had pre-empted their concerns. I told them:
Their initial reaction was not subtle male intrasexual competition. Nor was their followup response:
They told me I should go to the gym, that I should diet better and get new clothes and groom myself well. I pointed out, quite accurately, that those were not mutually exclusive options, and that I was actually pursuing all of them. This isn't a group of hotter girls telling their slightly chubby friend that the no-makeup "natural" look suits her, or jealous hoes telling their hotter friend that a bob-cut would be a great idea. We don't do this. We are sane, well-adjusted men. We try to lift each other up, instead of pulling each other down like pubic crabs might do to your dating potential.
Their reaction wasn't a lie, not even a subconscious attempt to keep me down. Unlike the feminine example above, going to the gym and getting a good haircut is still good advice. It just ignores the other options on the table.
At this point, they were slightly tongue-tied. They were too honest to tell me that looks didn't matter. They were too honest to tell me that I was misrepresenting myself. They just genuinely wanted what was best for me, and were worried that I was jumping the gun. They sighed, and we moved on. I am happy with that outcome, though I was much less happy about being called back to work on minimal notice, which meant I had to defer the procedure into the indefinite future.
My point is that these are good men, intelligent and introspective men. They know how to read the room. Yet, they are often blind to their own blessings, and quick to discount them. I don't blame them, some of that impulse comes from genuine kindness, from an urge to not let people they care about feel even worse about themselves than they already do.
I try to be kind too, but I am much less willing to trade it off for honesty. This extends to self-assessment and critique: I am painfully honest about my own strengths or weaknesses. I never tell someone complaining about being short that height doesn't matter. I don't tell people who worry that they're not smart enough that intelligence doesn't matter, that it's all hard work. I don't tell my buddies who ask me how I make people laugh so easily that it's a skill that's trivial to pick up, or that much of it isn't innate. I think this makes me a good ethnographer, and I'm self-aware enough to know that some reading this might consider this puffery and self-aggrandizement. Fuck you. I know better, I hedge no more than I need to.
I read papers. I review the old OkCupid blogs. I have a good idea of what works. I am also aware of my own neuroses, that this impulse arises because I grew up with a far more handsome younger brother and best friend (he's part of this friend group). I used to feel much worse about my looks, I would seethe with jealousy. That pot boiled over, I'm mostly at peace with myself. It's incredibly ironic that my brother came out as gay, which makes his appeal to the ladies largely moot. This doesn't change the factual situation, my observations on the difference that 95th+ percentile attractiveness made were very real. The emotional valence might have blunted with time and growing into my own skin, but the truth doesn't change because of it.
I've known plenty of intelligent men who think "SMV" is a tainted, sexist concept. I acknowledge that this is more likely to be a view held by women, but I am sensible enough not to go around talking about SMV with most women, not even most men.
I have found that the majority of women in my sociocultural milieu are reasonably aware of this, in India or otherwise. Then again, they're disproportionately doctors, and you'd expect them to know better. This is probably the biggest delta between sexes, but mostly because men genuinely do age better and hold their attractiveness longer on average. I'm probably more attractive as a partner now than I'd have been 5 years back, and it's going to be a while till I'll truly peak. And that peak? It leads to a plateau and gentle decline.
Finally, it's important to disentangle socially approved canned lines from revealed preferences. Women are much more likely to obsess over makeup, hair dyes, cosmetic procedures. At a deep level, people tend to understand much more strongly than they let on, be it in public or to themselves. I understand the discomfort, I just power through it.
My point, assuming there is a point, is that I think it's unfair to single out women as being unique here. This topic is incredibly uncomfortable for most people. It's socially taboo.
I wish it wasn't, which is why I'm talking about it. The taboo prevents actions that genuinely help, even if, to a degree, this is a Red Queen Race. Teaching everyone to run the same percentage faster doesn't change who wins the race, you just burn more calories on the way. On the other hand, being sensible about your dating prospects or reproductive potential does bring non-rivalrous benefits to yourself and others.
Oh well. If my willingness to be clear-eyed about these things gives me alpha, then I'm not that fussed about other people being idiots, even if my innate honesty and inability to sit by when people are being wrong (on the internet or IRL) often makes me speak up. That's what I'm doing right now.
If a friend came to me and said "I want surgery to change X part about me" my concern would not be based in this notion that looks don't matter, or that one is necessarily wrong to have issues with self-esteem, or that I am somehow blind to my own charms and blessings.
My concern would be that for someone who gets up in the morning and doesn't like who they see in the mirror, that surgery will not fix what ails them.
Are you being honest with yourself that you could just get one surgery, and then you would be happy? That it would remedy what gnaws at you?
I may be somewhat biased as I have seen a relatively large number of people who obviously could not stop at just one. Maybe I have been blessed with whatever set of nature/nurture impulses to have arrived at the point where I wake up and like who peers back at me in the bathroom. I am perhaps lucky to fit into the right social/demographic niche such that I am not bombarded with messages telling me I must find myself inferior to my better peers all day. Yet I cannot convince myself that I am wrong to have this base skepticism that (outside certain specific instances) surgically altering oneself will lead to greater happiness.
That is a valid concern, and one that I would have if a friend of mine told me something similar.
But I am careful not to let it become a fully general counterargument. Surgery for cosmetic purposes is not as qualitatively different from working out or getting a nice haircut as it seems (and the latter does involve cutting off parts of yourself). You can break your back at the gym. A bad diet can give you brittle bones. Once you have broken it down into risk versus benefit, then there is little else to add that isn't moralizing.
Even more important is that self-image and self-regard are not the only pertinent metrics. If I end up depressed again, I'd rather be fit and depressed. If I'm suicidal, I'd rather be hot and getting laid while feeling suicidal. As I've insisted, I am neither depressed or suicidal right now (and you better believe I'm grateful for that).
Similarly, being taller has benefits even if you don't appreciate them. Being rich improves your life, even if the hedonic treadmill mostly beats compound interest as the most powerful force in the current universe. I'd rather cry in a limo than on a bus, and I've cried on a bus.
I believe so. I think I'm unusually good at introspection and understanding what makes me tick. Am I 100% confident of that? I'd be a poor Bayesian if I was that blase about things. I do not claim to be perfect, but I am confident enough that I don't worry about it. I've done that worrying in the past, and it wasn't particularly productive.
If the surgery goes well, I might opt for more. I am unlikely to, unless it ends up botched and I urgently need revision. As you can see, I have waited a long time, and haven't rushed into things. That counts for a lot.
I am also aware that the surgery is not a panacea for all that ails me. I have reasonable expectations. I am pursuing all available avenues for self-improvement, while the relief from severe depression gives me the will and energy to do so.
At the end of the day, this is a personal decision. I am most accountable to myself, and I've stamped that decision only after a lot of internal debate. I discussed my intentions with friends and family well before I decided to bite the bullet. I've even written about it here. I'm not sitting and crying while looking at myself in the mirror, God knows I've never felt that awful about my looks. I just want to be more handsome than I already am, and can afford the surgery while being willing to accept the risks.
I would disagree that there is little qualitative difference; I'm not inclined to psycho-analyze otherwise I might wonder at the glibness of comparing surgery to a haircut. But I would also disagree that moralizing is unimportant, or is irrational, or actively harmful.
This rationale will persist after your first surgery. You could still be depressed and incrementally hotter, should you get just one more. Think how many more chicks you'll score with that extra edge. Who knows how your life will be transformed tipping yourself from the 84th to the 85th percentile in looks?
You say that, but the time my dad, a very qualified surgeon, tried to give me a haircut? He cut off a good chunk of my earlobe. Good thing that he's a great surgeon, he managed to get it back on without too much scarring. I'd rather not trust him with future plastic surgery.
If you're inclined to moralize more than I am, be my guest. It's a free country, or at least a free forum.
I am a reasonably rational agent, even when depressed. I am pretty good at making expected value calculations, so if I do get the surgery (which is far from certain, even if I intend to), I think I can make those decisions as I go. My plastic surgeon, on finding out I was a psych resident, tried to pimp me by asking me if I was confident that I didn't have body dysmorphic disorder ( @Throwaway05 might find this funny). And I was able to argue, with the facts on my side, that that's not the case. He wasn't being serious, but I had a serious answer. I stand by it. You can do a lot of things if you're not an idiot about it, and I've been accused of many things in my life, but rarely have I been called stupid.
In other words, if I genuinely think a slope is slippery and leads to bad places, I'm going to go take a hike to somewhere safer. For now, I think my shoes have got the grip
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