This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Today I learned there exists a person who likes both Hitler and Netanyahu. He likes Hitler because he helped his nation get devloped and was a great leader. He likes Israel because they are defending against terrorism.
This is an incredibly bad top level post, even for a weekend.
First this seems 'boo outgroup'.
Second, liking Hitler is an extreme fringe position in Germany. Hitlers success at making Germany great again was very short-lived, and most German nationalists would not claim that a few years of ruling most of Europe at gunpoint was worth the eventual defeat, the splitting of Germany (with the East still worse off than the West today) and the destruction of the Germany cities, even if they were totally indifferent to the pain the Wehrmacht inflicted on the rest of Europe. As a rule of thumb, great leaders do not cause their countries to be ruined within a decade and change.
Or do you mean that the person you are talking about is not a German, and Hitler helped develop another nation, indirectly? The US? Israel? This would be much easier if you had bothered to proactively provide evidence, e.g. a link to a tweet or something.
Third, you can't chose what people admire you, and as a dig at Netanyahu it seems incredibly weak. I dislike his policies from the bottom of my heart, but "a fringe German Neonazi agrees with him" does not change at all how I feel about him.
It was a pretty funny post.
Notably, you made a bad not too level post by comparing Hitler to Trump (ie make Germany great again). Trump isn’t Hitler even if Trump has an authoritarian streak.
I will stand by this, actually, because while it was not a NSDAP slogan (they used "Deutschand Erwache", awaken Germany, I think), I think it is a fair summary of their platform in four words.
Take the endonym of the regime, 'Third Reich'. Its explanation supposes, simply enough, that there were three times in history were Germany was great. The first time was the thousand-year long Holy Roman Empire (ending with Napoleon), the second time was the Prussian German Empire (ending with Germany losing WW1, or in the mind of the Nazis with Germany getting stabbed in the back in the back by traitor Jews and Commies in alliance with evil foreign powers bent on keeping Germany down through the Versailles treaty), and the Nazi project was promised to be even greater than these two glorious periods of German history, lasting another thousand years or so.
I concede that I would have been unlikely to pick exactly that phrasing if Trump had not used it before. I did so intentionally, because I claim that the most basic narrative -- our nation is destined for greatness but traitors and evil foreigners are keeping up from it, but now a strong man will clean up is pretty similar.
I think it is more than just combining a presidential campaign slogan with a bloodthirsty monster of history. If I tried "Lenin promised the masses Change They Can Believe In", I feel like the analogy would fall apart plenty of steps before the MAGA/MGGA one, as Lenin wanted to violently change the system, and Obama advocated working within the system.
I am also not claiming that Trump is Hitler or as bad as Hitler. I am pointing out a curious similarity (not unique to them, plenty of strongmen have campaigned on similar premises), which would be a deadly sin on LW ("how can you poison our minds by bringing politics into this"), but seems pretty standard for the motte.
As you point out, it is very common. It isn’t something that was only found in Nazi German or MAGA thought. Thus pointing out the similarities falls apart as an excuse since it would be similar with other movements.
Instead it looks like an attempt to sneer at your outgroup by Goodwining it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link