This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I knew one guy like this in college. He would drop everything to help just about anyone. He was popular with women in the sense that they all raved about what a prince he was. None of them dated him and as far as I know he graduated with his virginity intact.
I do agree that if a man is high enough status, he can probably play the "I am a humble servant and a lowly worm" schtick and still attract women. I would call that "countersignaling."
No, that's the thing, high status men don't play "signaling" games. They don't play act like they're servants, they're just bros to everyone. They just don't act like women are different in that matter.
Honestly, the second you start thinking about how to "signal" and playing games to attract women, you've lost; you're not and will not be high status that way. Maybe you'll trick some broken women into sleeping with you, which is maybe from some perspectives better than staying a virgin "nice guy". But high status men don't even know when their charm is on. I know some of these guys. They're just charisma black holes, there's no switch they don't act different to men and women, and their charm works on both equally, even straight guys. When they join a conversation, whatever the topic was is immediately dropped for everyone to talk about them and what's up with their lives and please talk more about yourself.
I strongly disagree. For example, let's suppose you're a typical guy. A girl wants you to do something nice for her, such as help her move something; hold her purse; buy her a drink, etc. Your brain (informed by years of propaganda) is urging you to do it. No, no, no. Don't do it. If you do it, it (generally speaking) ruins your chances with her.
Everyone plays "signaling" games, it's part of being human.
Your chances of what? Your chances of quick casual sex, maybe. I don't think it harms your chances of falling into deep, mutual love, though, which is best done on a solid foundation of honesty and friendship. You cannot build a soul-deep connection with another human being if, from day one, you're playing mind games where you treat them worse than you would a stranger in an effort to push their evopsych buttons. Those tactics may get you somewhere, but that "somewhere" will not be love.
Either one. It's very difficult to build a long term relationship if there isn't initial sexual attraction.
I'm not sure I would use the phrase "mind games" to include "getting in the habit of acting in such a way as to receive respect from others," but however you want to label it, you are incorrect.
I am starting from the premise that a decent person would, all else being equal, help a same-sex acquaintance with inconveniences like helping to carry a sofa if asked. If you refuse to help a female acquaintance with the same task because you're trying to maximize your chances of getting in her pants, then you're treating her worse than a generic person specifically to push her supposed evopsych buttons with ulterior motives. How could this be anything else than a mind game? And again, how do you get from that to the mutual trust and intimacy that is at once the condition and the chiefest pleasure of romantic love?
I'm not sure I would agree with that premise, depending on what you mean by "acquaintance" and what you mean by "asked."
The word "acquaintance" can include people one barely knows as well as people one knows pretty well. "asked" can include something super-polite along the lines of "Hey, how would like me to get a couple rounds of beer for you this weekend? I just need another guy to help move this couch."
What's interesting is that in general men don't ask men for favors the way that (some) women ask men for favors. Women tend to be far more entitled and narcissistic about it. In other words, tend to ask for things at a level of acquaintance and with a level of deference which are far lower than the level a man would do it. Women also tend to ask for more. While a man might say "Hey, can you watch my briefcase while I go to the bathroom," a woman might ask for a man to actually hold her bag.
If another man were to ask a favor with the attitude women tend to display, I'd see the man as being rather rude and presumptuous.
So really, it's more about treating men and women the same than treating them differently. If you want to call that "mind games," so be it.
I wonder if there's a social-bubbles/Blue-vs-Red effect - this example, because it introduces a transactional dimension to the interaction, isn't what I'd call "super-polite". There might be a social expectation that paying back the favor further down the line would be the proper thing to do, sure, but I would consider it somewhat rude to make that an explicit offer as part of the request. It implies that the person you're asking is self-interested and would only help a pal out if he's certain there's something in it for him.
In contrast I move in social circles where the expectation is that if someone (maybe not a complete stranger, but an acquaintance, friend-of-a-friend, coworker sort of person) asks you for help, provided the request isn't phrased patronizingly or clearly unreasonable in scope, it'd be kind of dickish to turn them down. Helplfulness and community spirit are important qualities to cultivate. This is why it intuitively seems to me that shooting a girl down if she asks you for help with something is a break from established social scripts, something you'd have to actively decide to do in an effort to portray yourself as an alpha male. If all else being equal "Uh, no" would be your default answer to someone asking you for help without an offered payout, then sure, saying yes if it's a hot girl would read very differently, and it might make sense to refrain from making that exception.
I don't agree, but I don't think it affects the overall point: If the woman makes a request which would seem even mildly rude or presumptuous or inappropriate were it to come from a man, the answer should be "no."
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link