This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think the problem is ultimately grift and the Iron Law of Bureaucracy.
More generally: any movement’s leaders grift so much, it kills motivation to fight for them (because they’ll take the spoils and leave you with the consequences). When people become desperate and willing to sacrifice more for less, the movement’s leaders grift more. The leaders who grift less and try to leave any spoils or protection to followers, have them stolen (protection abused and ruined) by the less charitable leaders; it’s a prisoner’s dilemma. In this way, grift destroys itself even aware it’s doing so.
For better or worse, this is happening to The (left’s) Movement: as it’s losing influence, it’s losing the ability to defend low-level fighters, and has not been (at least economically, and I believe culturally below a surface level) rewarding supporters. People didn’t vote for Kamala, the woke wouldn’t fight hard for Newsome. A woke Donald Trump figure may emerge, but like Trump, I also expect them to benefit themselves over the ideology, even if they don’t intend to (because they must outcompete or will be subsumed by Iron climbers).
The only solution is a new movement, as the old ones collapse. In the same way that the only solution to aging is rebirth.
EDIT: I also think it’s important to note that Luigi didn’t shoot a rightist figurehead. That would be Thomas Crooks, Tyler Robinson, or Cole Allen; none seem to have been presented positively even implicitly in the mainstream left (though extreme left has some supporters). Luigi shot a health insurance CEO (who may have been Democrat or Republican but is only really known as a health insurance CEO).
The class movement is maybe interesting, because it has far more support than any left or right movement (because obviously most people aren’t top ε%) but is especially corruptible (because anyone who rises in this movement becomes its target themselves, and if they try to stay genuine, have less money and therefore less power than Iron climbers). It’s basically impossible to eliminate rich people (or more specifically powerful entities…AI slavery would do it), although not to replace them, like Brian Thompson. I don’t know a good mitigation.
Wrong, rightists grift more and keep more of the money. Leftists grift less and then pass out the money to NGOs when they do grift.
But do these NGOs spend the money on their publicly stated goals, or more grift? Particularly those most backed by establishment Democrats, not necessarily those most promoted by grass-roots advocates.
Note that "grift" includes self-preservation, luxuries are usually only a small fraction. An NGO that spends the majority of its money advertising and infecting government is spending a minority on its mission; in their defense, that may be necessary to avoid dying and further the mission at all during famine (e.g. Republican control), but do they revert during Democrat control without getting outcompeted?
More options
Context Copy link
The NGOs are just more leftists.
Yes, but the point is that leftists grift to help The Movement whereas rightists grift for a new car.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link